General trips no kicker question.

[kongo_totte]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

CO ($74.85)
Button ($92.71)
SB ($30.65)
Hero ($52.75)
UTG ($49.85)
UTG+1 ($68)
UTG+2 ($77.45)
MP1 ($96.73)
MP2 ($97.45)
MP3 ($44.30)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls $0.50, UTG+2 calls $0.50, MP1 calls $0.50, MP2 calls $0.50, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Hero checks.

Flop: ($2.75) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero.....

What should be my general line here, bet out or check-raise. So far I have prefered to check-raise, basically cause I believe people will bet with more hands that I beat than call. Someone on the boards (don't remember who) disagreed with me though.

Discuss

[pokerjoker]

Check call is my vote. Not a very dangerous flop here. The only way youre probably going to lose it if opponent already has you beat.

[swolfe]

i tend to lead at the pot from OOP because most people would expect you to check-raise.

if i were in LP and it was checked to me, i would lead at the pot to see of anyone wanted to check-raise me /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[kongo_totte]

[ QUOTE ]
i tend to lead at the pot from OOP because most people would expect you to check-raise.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but in the case your check-raise is called, I'd say the issue is no longer to extract, since you are most likely beat. Basically, this hand should not win any big pots anyway.

[LethalRose]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i tend to lead at the pot from OOP because most people would expect you to check-raise.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but in the case your check-raise is called, I'd say the issue is no longer to extract, since you are most likely beat. Basically, this hand should not win any big pots anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]


wahhhhh? even in 200NL someone with an 8 here is going to call you down unless you get crazy.

[kongo_totte]

[ QUOTE ]
wahhhhh? even in 200NL someone with an 8 here is going to call you down unless you get crazy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Time to move up to the 200's I guess.

[j0wlev]

I like to lead at the pot with a half pot bet, make the impression you have a good 8 and are testing the waters. I don't see myself getting away from this hand unless its for my entire stack or a fairly good portion.

I think if you play this hand too meekly, you aren't making the dollars you should.

[kongo_totte]

What hands give alot of action on this board that I beat?

[NYCNative]

You could also be against 66. I would check-call this one then lead the turn and see what happens.

[xorbie]

Bet, check/call, bet.

[ryanghall]

Surely you can't think that the average 200NL player is calling this down the whole way with an 8....

[ryanghall]

On the $50 buyin games, I don't mind check-raising this. It gives you fairly good information. If you're called, you know you need to see a cheap showdown.

When you get higher up, I'd prefer to bet out, because a lot of players will now call you not thinking that you have the Queen (because most players don't bet out with your hand on this board). The disadvantage is that, if called, you don't know where you're at. At this point, just play some poker and, as you know, don't get too involved.

Ryan

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]

What hands give alot of action on this board that I beat?

[/ QUOTE ]

a PP or ace high in the hands of the right players

[fimbulwinter]

in this case, i think the main point is that you need to have a cogent strategy for such situations that does three things:

- lets you pick up more pots than you're entitled to
- lets you get some value for low-value situations (like this one)
- keeps you out of trouble

in general this means that you always lead with any hand likely to be best (on this flop that means any PP, ace high, and JTs with a backdoor frush draw etc.) or you never lead and you use the check/call lead turn option. the latter shuld probably be used with better reads.

I really really don't like checkraising here because it gts you into trouble and keeps you from winning much more than twice the size of the pot on the flop.

i made a silly analogy to the whack-a-mole game here. if you can be betting flops like this such that maybe 1/3 you've got the goods and the rest of the time air, you'll win a lot of little pots, lose a few medium ones and win a few big ones, which is basically automoney.

fim

[DoomSlice]

What's your plan for the turn if/when your lead is called?

[punter11235]

[ QUOTE ]
Someone on the boards (don't remember who) disagreed with me though.


[/ QUOTE ]

I used to disagree but I changed my mind. Now I think its good to checkraise (or slowplay : check/call/call/bet but fold to big aggression or simply checkraise) with trips no kicker and lead with trips with good kicker. Without a kicker you wont win huge pot here, so your purpose is take whatever they bet + tell them that you have trips so you will be fairly sure that you can fold after reraise.
With kicker the opposite is true, you want big pot not smallish bets and bet is often necessary to get all the money in the pot because checkraise is too scary and even trips low kicker may fold then, they almost always wont after leading (the best is when opps try slowplayin and go allin on the river).

Best wishes

[xorbie]

[ QUOTE ]
in this case, i think the main point is that you need to have a cogent strategy for such situations that does three things:

- lets you pick up more pots than you're entitled to
- lets you get some value for low-value situations (like this one)
- keeps you out of trouble

in general this means that you always lead with any hand likely to be best (on this flop that means any PP, ace high, and JTs with a backdoor frush draw etc.) or you never lead and you use the check/call lead turn option. the latter shuld probably be used with better reads.

I really really don't like checkraising here because it gts you into trouble and keeps you from winning much more than twice the size of the pot on the flop.

i made a silly analogy to the whack-a-mole game here. if you can be betting flops like this such that maybe 1/3 you've got the goods and the rest of the time air, you'll win a lot of little pots, lose a few medium ones and win a few big ones, which is basically automoney.

fim

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Yep. This is also why going bet, check/call, bet with some strong but not nut hands is good, because it allows you to lead, check/call draws and river bluff with a much higher fold equity.

[kongo_totte]

[ QUOTE ]
Yep. This is also why going bet, check/call, bet with some strong but not nut hands is good, because it allows you to lead, check/call draws and river bluff with a much higher fold equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, in this case I am likely to have no fold equity from hands that beat me.

Also, one of the main reasons I like a check-raise is because it gives the maximum amount of info. The lead, check-call, lead line seems like a good alternative though.

Thinking about it, I'm not sure the first part is even true though.

Ok, what's my turn move if:
A) I check-raise and I'm called by 1 opponent.
B) I lead and I'm called by 1 opponent.

Personally, I prefer:
A) Bet 1/2, fold to further agression.
B) The check-call, lead river seems interesting. Assuming the river lead is to be considered a blocking bet, yes?

[xorbie]

If a check raise gives information, that's basically conceding that every worse hand folds and every better hand calls (because there aren't likely any Q5/Q7/AA type hands out there that can make a mistake).

OTOH, a flop bet will get called by a ton of pocket pairs, even an 8 or a gutshot. A turn check/call will let many hands bluff at the pot and a river lead is confusing and often gets called. If you get raised on the river, consider folding.

[kongo_totte]

[ QUOTE ]


OTOH, a flop bet will get called by a ton of pocket pairs, even an 8 or a gutshot. A turn check/call will let many hands bluff at the pot and a river lead is confusing and often gets called. If you get raised on the river, consider folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

I must admit I stand corrected, this is the right way to play in my just aquired opinion.

Thanks

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
If a check raise gives information, that's basically conceding that every worse hand folds and every better hand calls (because there aren't likely any Q5/Q7/AA type hands out there that can make a mistake).

OTOH, a flop bet will get called by a ton of pocket pairs, even an 8 or a gutshot. A turn check/call will let many hands bluff at the pot and a river lead is confusing and often gets called. If you get raised on the river, consider folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is the line that i used in my recent KQ hand that i just bumped with results. i didn't have that as a plan, but it just kind of felt right as i was playing it.

just ran into a similar situation at a live 1/2 NL game at the Borgata and paid dearly for a bad misread. Had KJ off in the BB and the player next to me (was pretending he was drunk all night) limped in quietly and I felt he had a big hand. Flop came KK9 and I made a good raise and he stood up and made a big production of saying all in for about $250 more...only about $80 in the POT so I initially was ready to lay it down quick but I really felt he had AA...didn't have him on AK beacuse of how he played it...took a while but I finally called and he turned over 99 for the boat...still learning but I felt that at least I though it through thoroughly...the overbet was suspicious but in hindsight a great play if he put me on a K.

[amoeba]

on non coodinated boards like this, I like check call, lead the turn, block the river.

[jsmith5]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet, check/call, bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

This will make you money every time, as long as someone has the 8. If no one has a piece of it, you won't make any money anyway. By checking you may let them catch up, but then it becomes obvious you have a Q, because everyone checks trips like this. I will lead out at the pot 9 times out of 10 because no one puts on you on the Q.