Overpair gets check-raised on paired flop

[jtr]

OK. My main opponent in this hand is the small blind, who has fairly kooky preflop stats of 60/20. However, he seems to be playing quite well after the flop and is not especially aggressive. This is the first time I've seen him check-raise a flop.


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero ($210)
UTG ($82.70)
MP ($3.25)
Button ($35.45)
SB ($206.72)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls $1, MP calls $1, Button calls $1, <font color="#CC3333">SB (poster) raises to $5.5</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $14</font>, UTG folds, MP calls $2.25 (All-In), Button folds, SB calls $9.

So, I get kings in the big blind, find that our SB friend has raised as he often does, and I re-raise him to $15 total. If SB is awake, and I think he is despite the 60/20, he sees me as tight and aggressive. My preflop raise rate is only around 7 or 8, so the reraise does a lot to define my hand.

Note that a very short stack gets all-in preflop, but this has no real effect on the hand except to provide some more dead money.


Flop: ($35.25) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 1 all-in)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $27</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to $54</font>, Hero ?

So the flop looks good for KK, he checks to me, I bet assuming that it will all be over, and to my surprise he check-min-raises me. Like I said, he's not super-aggro postflop, and this is the first flop check-raise I've seen. Also, note that we're both pretty deep for the $100 game -- we both have about $190 when the flop betting starts.

So, what's going on here? Would he really be raising with a jack and risking losing me? Has he made a set of 2s for the boat? Or is he putting me on AK and raising for value with a hand like 99?

I realize this is a pretty common situation and normally I don't find these spots difficult. But the combination here of his preflop looseness, the absence of any special evidence for flop aggression, and the large amount of money left behind, all made me unsure of how to proceed.

Your move on the flop and your plan for the rest of the hand?

Thanks.

[jtr]

I know, I know -- it's not a thrilling hand. But help me out here, guys. I felt at sea about this one and now feel I made the wrong decision. Thoughts, please.

[stu-unger]

i think my default line pretty much sucks, but ill throw it out there and see if it helps. i call the c/r i just dont think i find a fold here with as wide of a range as the villain can have here. plus u have position which should make this a slight bit easier and may slow your villain down. i think i call a reasonable turn bet (i.e 70-90) or hopefully check through and get to a cheap river. i think if he shows some real strength though i have to let it go and if he bets the turn and river i have to fold. this spot sucks because his range is too wide. i think u could see any pair 88-AA and any J hand here along with the ocasional steal attempt. i think im calling and trying to not get commited on the turn.

[GoCubsGo]

I would have folded. He probably showed nothing in this example but most of the time you're behind. Fold before you have too much invested in this hand and get him next time. With his stats, he is likely to be in the hand next time you catch good cards.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Call. Either push or fold the turn if he bets. Check if he checks. VB the river if there is any money left and you're both still in the hand.

[jtr]

Thanks a lot for the suggested lines. In fact I folded it, but I'm mad at myself for doing so. Partly results-oriented thinking, but mostly because I think that's just too weak here and he can have an awfully wide range of hands, with most of them behind KK.

I like the line of calling the min-raise, and then either pushing the turn or checking it through. As it turned out, it was a complete bluff in this instance -- villain had KTo.

[TheWorstPlayer]

With $200 stacks, it's not just a question of whether or not you think he has a jack, it's a question of whether or not he thinks you have a jack. And the answer is no. He is pretty sure you don't have a jack. So that means he can make that play with a very wide range of hands. So KK is ahead of a lot of them.

[trevor]

[ QUOTE ]
it's not just a question of whether or not you think he has a jack, it's a question of whether or not he thinks you have a jack. And the answer is no.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is excellent analysis. He's right in that he could being doing this with any two. Again, nice read there.

[ QUOTE ]
so the reraise does a lot to define my hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

I find this interesting because I agree with you, yet SB must think you are (weak?) tight if he thinks you'll fold an overpair in this spot. I am sympathizing, because I am weak myself in spots like this.

Speaking of weakness, if Hero flat calls the raise on the flop I worried about a second and potentially 3rd barrel here. I think that is why the push on the turn solves those problems?

[TreyOfLight]

No one else mentioned it, but I don't like your pf reraise amount. It's only 9 more to him in a pot that has 23 in it before the limpers act. You're defining your hand for him anyway, you may as well make him pay for the privilege.

As deep as you are, I'm inclined to check behind on this flop.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
No one else mentioned it, but I don't like your pf reraise amount. It's only 9 more to him in a pot that has 23 in it before the limpers act. You're defining your hand for him anyway, you may as well make him pay for the privilege.

As deep as you are, I'm inclined to check behind on this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think these are both great points. Nice post.

[theben]

checking the flop is a good possibility, i like that line. even though you give a freebie to a AQh or something like that, i think it serves well for pot size control after you've defined your hand. it also should let you get some value from a smaller pair as well as ditch your own hand easier, depending on how the action follows. however, i see nothing wrong with the moderate sized preflop reraise. although you do define your hand, you also keep the pot smaller and can easily get away should things not go your way. if you make a larger reraise, you might get stubborn, and end up making yourself get stuck on the hand.

[TreyOfLight]

[ QUOTE ]
if you make a larger reraise, you might get stubborn, and end up making yourself get stuck on the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a problem for me, typically with TT-QQ when I 3-bet preflop (not standard but e.g. from the blinds against a button raise) and then he 4-bets (but small) and I have the odds to call for set value but miss the flop and oh it looks like the rest of my stack is about a pot sized bet, what the hey!

So, yeah, don't do that.

[jtr]

Thanks again, all, for the comments.

Yes, the preflop reraise looks a bit weak when we consider the calling odds it offers to villain. I have to confess that I was reluctant to reraise more because of having regularly screwed up the kind of situation described above, where a large preflop commitment leads to poor postflop play in the face of a scary board.

Checking behind on that board is an interesting option that I didn't consider at the time, thanks for that.