Cheapest way to find out where you are

[davidross]

Made up situation that I seem to run into once a week.

Stacks are deep, there is a solid raise from EP and you have JJ, or TT.

What is your standard play and plan for post-flop?

I've tried re-raising pre-flop which wins you the original raise when you are ahead but costs you the chance to hit the flop and bust him when he comes over the top.

Smooth calling and playing it by ear post-flop which I prefer, but gets tough when all undercards come and you get bet into, you're back in the pre-flop situation. Raise and fold to a re-raise (which probably has cost you half your stack by now). or just call.

[bugstud]

doesn't sound that deep if you're getting half in preflop on a reraise. I've been calling some but mostly based on how fast the structure gets. faster it is, more likely i commit lotta chips

[sirio11]

We just discussed something related in this thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=3011820&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1)

[Kirkrrr]

Okay, I'll take a shot at it and hopefully some of the better tourney players will join in:

If the stacks are deep enough (20BB+, at least - though I'm sure a lot of people will disagree with that number - as you're getting an overlay from the blinds/antes/limpers if any) I'd smooth call pre-flop and smooth-call a raggy flop with the overpair. Overcards will give up the vast majority of the time after they get called on the flop unless they're extremely aggressive (which you'd know about to begin with, and have taken that into consideration), or hit some sort of a huge draw on the turn.

My instinct (quite possibly wrong, but...) is to try and check it down post-flop as I've unstacked - and gotten unstacked - people way too often with a weak check on the turn and their inevitable push all-in, and would HATE to be in those shoes.

Anyone else?

Kirk R.

[MicroBob]

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faster it is, more likely i commit lotta chips


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yup


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try and check it down

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you've got JJ or TT...he has KQs or AQ or whatever.
flop is 952.
you really want to be giving free-cards here?

any over-card comes and you're going to cringe...especially because you COULD have had it earlier.


I don't have any real answers here.
I'm lazy and I just wing it.

Think I should be thinking about my tourney-game more?

It's kind of read and/or mood and/or hunch and/or stack-size dependent with me.
Sometimes I would be better off asking my magic 8-ball but it would just say 'it depends' and I already knew that.

I think this is the toughest decision in poker. But the odds with an ugly flop like that that you do have the best hand and have to bet 3/4 of the pot.

[davidross]

Well let's say it's 2nd level of a Super, he raises to 60 and you call. 150 in the pot. He bets 150 on the flop. I think you need to raise 400 min to make it a real raise, if he comes over the top and you started with 1000 folding here leaves you with 540.

So it kind of sucks to play it that way, but if you do it pre-flop, AK will surely re-raise and I'd hate to lay down against AK.

[bugstud]

well mike's line from previous posts here is to call the flop and fold to a second bet, or sometimes the river bet depending on stacks and whatnot.

[Kirkrrr]

2nd Level is not particularly difficult. Call pre-flop, call flop, push the turn if the coast looks clear and he checks, fold if he bets. The OP didn't mention this, but I was thinking more like way down the line with 5k/10k blinds when you're already in the money or very close to it, and these decisions become a lot more interesting/painful.

Kirk R.

[woodguy]

I like to re-pop PF w/ JJ and TT if I'm in position as it make the later streets easier to play. OOP, I'll flat call and proceed carefully trying to keep the pot small if the board is scary.

I re-pop because that gets me the lead and then I can let my opponent's imagination put me on a larger hand, then I can take down a lot of K or even A high flops with a cont-bet. I can also fold to a re-raise in good conscience.

I won't say this is the best way, but my playing style is usually playing pretty fast as I find that helps get my mosters paid off.

I fire a lot more cont-bets than you do, so this may not work for you.

Regards,
Woodguy

[Punker]

If you are deep, playing it in the last line you give and losing half your stack isn't tragic. You are deep, you have time to come back.

[Jason Strasser]

There is no magical answer here, and I'm not really sure what you are looking for. Someone raises you call with TT flop comes low and unncoordinated and you get potted into... This requires you to play poker. Make a read and go from there. If you think your opponent has a hand he will call a raise with that you are ahead of, then raise. Or if you think your opponent will be so aggressive as to put you into situations down the road where if you call his bet, he may bluff you off the best hand later (IE you are vulnerable), then raise. If you think your opponent has a hand like AK that he will no longer put any money into the pot unless he improves, then raise. If you think your opponent is bluffing and will continue to bluff then call.....

I mean... Your question is essentially asking us 'how do I play poker'.

And oh yeah. In general if you tend to raise 1/2 your stack here with overpairs on the flop, it seems absolutely terrible to fold to a reraise, given the general texture of the fields in these tourneys.

-Jason

[Prime Time]

[ QUOTE ]
We just discussed something related in this thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=3011820&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1)

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not the same Dave.

[AceHiStation]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We just discussed something related in this thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=3011820&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1)

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not the same Dave.

[/ QUOTE ]

How about this one? (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=tourn&Number=2995249&Forum =&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=2995249&Search =true&where=bodysub&Name=34681&daterange=1&newerva l=1&newertype=w&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Pos t2995249)

[Stipe_fan]

[ QUOTE ]
I like to re-pop PF w/ JJ and TT if I'm in position as it make the later streets easier to play. OOP, I'll flat call and proceed carefully trying to keep the pot small if the board is scary.

I re-pop because that gets me the lead and then I can let my opponent's imagination put me on a larger hand, then I can take down a lot of K or even A high flops with a cont-bet. I can also fold to a re-raise in good conscience.

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I feel the best way to proceed is do exactly what Woodguy said, if you are a preflop type player. You can get a lot of information and maybe take it down versus AJ or lower.

I would definitely like to see a flop with JJ or 1010. That is why I tend to call with this type of action, especially if you are a post-flop player. If you play it post-flop by calling his raise, then I think you should check-raise if all unders flop. I would be prepared to push if he goes AI. If you run into KK or such, so be it. Doing what Woodguy says eliminates all the A-x players. I would hate to see an ace flop and lose to some trashy ace.

Again, checkraising will also make your opponent pay for the turn card. You don't want him to see the turn for free. Hopefully, he doesn't check behind you.

The only problem with calling pf is you have absolutely no information on your opponents hand. If you are good at reading the board and putting him on a range of hands, then calling the pf raise is the best option.

Since, I suck at pre-flop play and post-flop play I am usually in a world of hurt!!!

Stipe

[fnord_too]

Solid raise meaning from a reasonable player?

I call pre flop most of the time, raise the all under flop, and let it go if he comes back over the top.

If it goes bet/raise/call, and we are still deep enough for two bets, I like checking behind on the turn if checked to. I don't like giving free cards here, but I like playing a big pot with one pair less. If he sticks around on the flop, my plan is to see the river cheaply unless I spike my set. If we are now in a situation where one reasonable bet puts one of us all in, that just sucks and I need some idea about whether villain can bluff on the river if I show weakness on the turn. That is just a tough spot.