My last two hands. Do I suck?

[Grisgra]

30/3 Party SNG. This is the painful part of trying to go by Harrington's "M" thingee. I'm a good-sized stack but when I steal I open myself up for this nonsense . . . biding my time for real hands might have been better.

I pretty much have to call the all-in on the 2nd hand, but can fold to the first. Should I just not be open-raising with A-rag here?
----------------------------
***** Hand History for Game 2456885498 *****
150/300 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) (Tournament 14433433) - Sun Jul 31 20:59:00 EDT 2005
Table Table 11227 (Real Money) -- Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: SHull (825)
Seat 3: XxXWINNERXxX (805)
Seat 6: Grisgra (1580)
Seat 8: DKalb21 (1870)
Seat 9: mpkow (1370)
Seat 10: nomosloplay (1550)
mpkow posts small blind (75)
nomosloplay posts big blind (150)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Grisgra [ As, 4c ]
SHull folds.
XxXWINNERXxX folds.
Grisgra raises (425) to 425
DKalb21 folds.
mpkow raises (1295) to 1370
mpkow is all-In.
nomosloplay folds.
Grisgra folds.
Creating Main Pot with $1945 with mpkow
** Summary **
Main Pot: 1945
SHull balance 825, didn't bet (folded)
XxXWINNERXxX balance 805, didn't bet (folded)
Grisgra balance 1155, lost 425 (folded)
DKalb21 balance 1870, didn't bet (folded)
mpkow balance 1945, bet 1370, collected 1945, net +575
nomosloplay balance 1400, lost 150 (folded)

***** Hand History for Game 2456888037 *****
150/300 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) (Tournament 14433433) - Sun Jul 31 20:59:26 EDT 2005
Table Table 11227 (Real Money) -- Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: SHull (825)
Seat 3: XxXWINNERXxX (805)
Seat 6: Grisgra (1155)
Seat 8: DKalb21 (1870)
Seat 9: mpkow (1945)
Seat 10: nomosloplay (1400)
nomosloplay posts small blind (75)
SHull posts big blind (150)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Grisgra [ 5d, Ac ]
XxXWINNERXxX folds.
Grisgra raises (425) to 425
DKalb21 folds.
mpkow folds.
nomosloplay raises (1325) to 1400
nomosloplay is all-In.
SHull folds.
Grisgra calls (730)
Grisgra is all-In.
Creating Main Pot with $2460 with Grisgra
Creating Side Pot 1 with $245 with nomosloplay
** Dealing Flop ** : [ Ts, 8h, 3c ]
** Dealing Turn ** : [ Jc ]
** Dealing River ** : [ 6c ]
** Summary **
Main Pot: 2460 | Side Pot 1: 245
Board: [ Ts 8h 3c Jc 6c ]
SHull balance 675, lost 150 (folded)
XxXWINNERXxX balance 805, didn't bet (folded)
Grisgra balance 0, lost 1155 [ 5d Ac ] [ high card ace -- Ac,Jc,Ts,8h,6c ]
DKalb21 balance 1870, didn't bet (folded)
mpkow balance 1945, didn't bet (folded)
nomosloplay balance 2705, bet 1400, collected 2705, net +1305 [ Kh Ks ] [ a pair of kings -- Kh,Ks,Jc,Ts,8h ]

[lastchance]

10x BB = push/fold for me. Generally, I only start not push/folding at 12x BB.

Just me, I guess.

I fold the first hand, shove the second one.

[durron597]

Hand 1 is a definitely push/fold situation. Depends on a lot of factors that you haven't really given in your OP. But your line is awful.

Hand 2 fine.

[ldavidjm]

The first hand is a marginal push, the second is an autopush.

Raising 33% of your stack and then folding it in the first one is pretty terrible. Just open push and sigh wistfully on the second one when the other guy flips over kings.

[The Don]

Hand 1: I play it the same way (I might fold preflop if I think the other players are loose)... although I believe it is bad logic to raise with A-rag because of its strength because you will have to fold if someone comes over the top. I would rather have a hand like J10 (which you will also ditch if someone comes OTT) because it takes a flop better if someone happens to call.

Hand 2: I fold this preflop. I never push A-rag 2 off the button with 7+BB.

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 is a definitely push/fold situation. Depends on a lot of factors that you haven't really given in your OP. But your line is awful.

Hand 2 fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

What factors?

So at what point do I start pushing in a situation like this? 7xBB with 6 left means that things are getting a little . . . tight. And an ace is an ace.

[Grisgra]

Bumping . . . just trying to gather opinions about my aggression here, especially in Hand #1. Lots of people left and I've got a decent number of chips, but my stack still isn't that big compared to the blinds . . .

If the choice is Push or Fold -- which is correct?

[lastchance]

Misread the original posts. Thought you were CO in the second one, making it a better push.

I think these are both folds.

[Jimbobobb]

Raising one third of your stack should only be done under the following circumstances in my opinion:

1. you are ready to commit all of your chips to the pot with a premium holding. Basically for me this means AA and KK. Pretty much the only hands I feel really good about getting some others to the flop with me. At this stage in a tournament with a 10Xbb stack I'm in push or fold mode usually.
2. You have an excellent read on those acting behind you, and you know they are all ridiculously tight and will only call you/go over the top with an extremely small set of hands, thus making your min/whatever raise as effective as an all-in, in terms of fold equity.


If your table is relatively tight, I think these could both be fine all-ins. If they're loose, I think the first one is a fine all-in and the second is marginal to bad. It really depends on what I think people will call with.

The big problem with your play in both of these hands is that you are giving away the edge that we thrive on in these games, and that is fold equity. You're letting other people push over the top and put you to the test, when it should be you putting THEM to the question. Any time I see someone raise one third of their stack and then fold to an all-in, you bet it goes in their notes, and you bet I start attempting resteals from them much more often.

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
If your table is relatively tight, I think these could both be fine all-ins. If they're loose, I think the first one is a fine all-in and the second is marginal to bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

This really confuses me, because with the first hand I have 1600 chips, but with the second I only have 1150 -- I'm in much bigger chip trouble in the second case, and am one step closer to having to post blinds. My hands in both cases are really just about the same -- so why would pushing in the first case be better than pushing in the second?

[ldavidjm]

I think he just mistyped or something, if the table is loose I'm folding the first one and pushing the second. Maybe I'm too aggressive but the 225 chips you pick up makes a pretty big difference in the second hand.

[beginner]

First hand, you have enough chips to wait for a better time to attempt a steal like this. If you were short stack it would have been justified.

Second hand, you have to fold to such a big re-raise. I doubt anything worse than a PP or A[K-9] is re-raising you here. I also don't like your raise here because of your position.

If I were in your place, I would not make either move. First hand because there are too many people in the game still and your stack is not that low to attempt this. Second, I don't like your position and I really don't like the call after the re-raise.

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
Second, I don't like your position and I really don't like the call after the re-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I'm not the only one with the leak, because look at the odds I'm getting on the call. Something like 2.5:1. I believe it's +EV to call here against anything but AA.