77 from the BB.

[wiggs73]

This is a PP $22.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP (t2560)
CO (t775)
Button (t1960)
SB (t890)
Hero (t835)
UTG (t980)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls t50, CO calls t50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t200) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets t50</font>, CO calls t50, SB folds, Hero is all-in.

Discuss.

[AKQJ10]

Long story short, you let too many opponents in for a medium pair. Your flop play was fine, but your preflop play was poor.

Now how I reached that assessment, in stream-of-consciousness (hence the odd organization of my reply).... What about raising to something like 300 on the flop? I think you've still got about the same chance of winning the hand, but I don't know that it plays out any differently if you get a caller or a reraise. Laying down an overpair to a reraise would be tough (see my thread about my 99 overpair).

Is pushing going to push out any better hands that a smaller but substantial raise wouldn't? A savvy opponent is going to read a push as indicating weakness and call with eights through aces (although limping with those pairs preflop would have been a mistake, but not outrageously improbable). A deuce calls you regardless.

Four-handed there's a reasonable chance you're behind to a deuce -- but not enough chance that you're going to lay down an overpair to a reraise. Since you're pot committed you might as well push. If top pair sees your push as weakness, so much the better.

I think you played it fine on the flop. But not raising out of the big blind with a medium pair is a big mistake. If you got outflopped by K2s or A2o, you invited it.

[wiggs73]

So are you saying to raise to 300 before or after the flop? I wasn't clear on that from your post.

[AKQJ10]

Sorry, I just edited to clarify. I started out (in stream of consciousness) evaluating the flop play, and considering whether there's an advantage to a smaller raise. But I don't think there's much of one.

[KramerTM]

I raise to 200 or 250 on the flop and autopush any card on turn.

Overall though, I don't mind how you played it. If MP is loose enough, you may get a call from overcards here.

[ldavidjm]

I don't like raising 7's PF with a bunch of limpers, especially when you're going to be out of position postflop. Secondly I hate playing the small overpairs like this, if you want to play at the pot this is the right move, but there's plenty of stuff that's calling that you're way behind, 8's through Jacks many times won't raise, a 2 is a longshot, and the only thing that's paying you off is a weak player with A5. That said I think a fair amount of time you're taking down the pot with the checkraise allin, but I still think you can bide your time and find better spots. I'd be alot more comfortable with the move if it were a somewhat stronger PP.

[durron597]

Why not lead this flop for 150 and fold to a raise?

Preflop is perfect.

[KramerTM]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like raising 7's PF with a bunch of limpers, especially when you're going to be out of position postflop. Secondly I hate playing the small overpairs like this, if you want to play at the pot this is the right move, but there's plenty of stuff that's calling that you're way behind, 8's through Jacks many times won't raise, a 2 is a longshot, and the only thing that's paying you off is a weak player with A5. That said I think a fair amount of time you're taking down the pot with the checkraise allin, but I still think you can bide your time and find better spots. I'd be alot more comfortable with the move if it were a somewhat stronger PP.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what's your suggestion here? I agree with what you say, but unsure how else to proceed. CR all-in seems risky because it is very likely this will get checked around, and almost any card is bad for you on the turn.

[wiggs73]

Just to clarify my line of thinking... this was the exact move I was hoping to make. I didn't want the flop to get checked around, but I thought there was a reasonable chance that there would be a bet by one of the 2 players after me. I had every intention of check-raising all-in if I sensed weakness. The min-bet and call seemed weak to me.

I could have bet out to try to accomplish this, but I thought I'd get the same result with a check-raise, but take down a slightly larger pot.

I wasn't looking to get action from over cards, as I was satisfied with the pot as-is. The t300 would be a nice addition to my stack.

[ldavidjm]

I'm not sure of the best line, in general I don't mind checking this and folding to any sort of decent bet as I've stated I don't think its worth it for t200 this early with blinds so low.

With the action as is, I don't think you can fold to a min bet here with an overpair, calling sucks cause a ton of stuff looks bad on the turn, so the checkraise would be my favored line. The bet and call and weak so take it down now. However, if he's betting 100 or 150 I'm seriously considering lettting this go. Maybe its weak but I get into all sorts of trouble early with these types of hands.

I don't like leading because it opens up all sorts of problems on the turn if smooth called. You need to get the money in now if your planning on getting it in at all.

[wiggs73]

I agree. I should have elaborated that I would have folded to a larger bet. So my line was to check-raise a small bet and check-fold to a large one.

If anyone was curious, the guy that led for t50 called with 99.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree. I should have elaborated that I would have folded to a larger bet. So my line was to check-raise a small bet and check-fold to a large one.

If anyone was curious, the guy that led for t50 called with 99.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the problem with the check/raise line. You leave yourself no options when you are behind.

[vinyard]

There's 200 in the pot by my count. I am not sure of my play with 77 but with 88-JJ all of my chips are going to the felt every time barring a "tricky player" or "exceptionally loose caller" read on MP. I have done this with 77 before.

I like the post-flop line. There's 300 chips in there, both the PF bet and call stink of not having a hand and the pair of twos on the board ought to scare both when you go all-in.

[Jay36489]

Ditto. I would raise but not check/push here. You do not have that strong of a hand. You have an overpair, but people play 88 99 TT and often JJ without raising preflop (every overpair except 66 beats you). Someone could easily have A2 in this unraised pot. You are either way ahead or way behind and I don't think you're ahead here often enough to push this.

[wiggs73]

Also, another plausible line I thought about was check-folding. How do people feel about this?

After reading the responses, I'm not sure I like leading or check raising.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, another plausible line I thought about was check-folding. How do people feel about this?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yuck.

[AKQJ10]

Sorry for the late reply. I'm in AC and was away from the Net yesterday.

Before I read any other replies, let me go on record as saying that I rethought and I don't like this flop push. You earn chips by giving your opponent a chance to make a mistake. Is the unlikely better overpair (88 thru AA) -- also misplayed preflop -- going to fold? Not likely. Is trip deuces or fives full going to fold? Of course not.

Conversely, is a worse hand going to call? Maybe, maybe, maybe against total donkeys, on your very best day, top pair top kicker calls -- but even that doesn't strike me as likely with a paired board. So in short, you're giving your opponent no chance to make a mistake and basically inducing correct play.

Far better IMO is a raise that overbets the pot a little. They both bet 50 and 300 is in the pot (going from memory, sorry if I'm off) so make them call another 350 cold. Raise to 400 unless your stack size makes that ludicrous -- as I recall that's about half your stack.

Sometimes you'll get drawn out on, but you'll have top pair or two overcards far more likely to call 400. Since they don't have odds to draw, you'll make a profit from them. You'll still lose when a deuce or fives full calls you, but that's fairly unlikely. IT WOULD HAVE BEEN EVEN MORE UNLIKELY IF YOU'D RAISED OUT OF THE BIG BLIND WITH THE BEST HAND!

OK, now i'm going to read other people's reasoning and see how wrong i am. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like raising 7's PF with a bunch of limpers, especially when you're going to be out of position postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't your poor position a reason to try to settle it preflop?

I should add a disclaimer: I have zero experience in these games -- I mostly play Pacific $4s where the play is just terrible! -- so my assumptions about how people play are probably unfounded. I'm surprised people would limp with 88 thru JJ, but if you say so I don't have the experience in this game to dispute that.

(I also won't be able to read any replies for a couple of days, since I'm in AC and out of my normal routine.)