QQ: Still lost in these situations

[hizo1]

Been playing .5/1 on and off for the past 8 months and I still feel really lost when this happens.

Pokerroom skin .5/1 10 handed. Reads so far are UTG+1 is LP donk and Button is a weak tight donk, no stats because my crappy laptop won't run pokertracker and four tables at once.

(sorry I couldn't get pokerroom to work on the converter for some reason).

Hero is UTG with Q /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, all fold to Button who calls, blinds fold.

Flop (7.5 SB)
K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

what's your line from here and why?

here's what I did:

Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, Button calls

Turn (5 BB)

4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, Button calls.

River (8BBs)

7 /images/graemlins/club.gif

Hero...???

value bets here? C/C? C/F? why???

thanks
hizo

[xGoreDudex]

Here's what I'd do...

Pre-Flop: Raise (well, duh /images/graemlins/smile.gif )
Flop: Raise, two callers...that sucks (we can assume atleast one is on a flush)
Turn: Okay, phew no diamonds. Let's fire and see if somebody drops, okay [censored] they didn't.
River: 7, okay, my queens are looking good, I'd raise, if somebody lingerd along with a King, well that sucks, but with no aggression shown on any streets, I'd bet this out.

[Dave G.]

If your opponents are passive enough postflop, I sometimes check/fold the turn here. I figure if they do have a K they will bet, and if they don't have a K they won't. However, I would never take this line against an unknown, I need to believe that they're pretty passive before I would do this.

These situations are always tricky. With position it's not so bad since you know most of the time you can get a free showdown, but out of position really sucks.

I think you played it fine. On the river, since you've come this far, I would check/call. You might get a free showdown and I don't think they're going anywhere. I would expect UTG+1 to flip over a K here. You may be able to save a bet this way, but call it if you have to. If it comes back 2 to you, obviously you can dump it.

[Dave G.]

[ QUOTE ]
we can asssume atleast one is on a flush

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not an assumption that anyone should be making with only two other people seeing the flop. Flush draws are not all THAT common. It's much more likely that noone has a flush draw here.

[xGoreDudex]

So what the hell are they staying with? hopes and dreams?
I'm not being a dick, just trying to learn something here lol.
With two people on the flop with us, why can't we assume they dont have a flush draw? their betting sequence shows the following...

PreFlop: nothing too strong unless their slow playing KK,AA,
Flop: If they were slow playing with that hand, they'd want the flush draw out,
Turn/River: They'd Raise for value.

I can't see your typical donk not betting somewhere if they held the K, altho I've seen it before, i think its much more likely we may be up against a J, or flush draw rather than the overcard.

Please rip me up /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Dave G.]

[ QUOTE ]
So what the hell are they staying with? hopes and dreams?

[/ QUOTE ]

They could be staying with anything. Come on, most of these people aren't even thinking about how they play, and don't know how to think about how they play even if they try. Until they do anything else but call, I'm giving them a very wide range of holdings including bottom pair, as much as a naked backdoor flush / straight draw, and so forth.

Some people will even play ace high this way. I had some dude at the 1/2 yesterday who called me down with ace high at least 10 times! I gave him a note - _VALUE BET LOTS_.

There's no secret conspiracy here. These people don't know what the hell they're doing. That's why they're in the hand. If this were the Bellagio 400/800, maybe I'd think differently.

[hizo1]

[ QUOTE ]
River: 7, okay, my queens are looking good, I'd raise, if somebody lingerd along with a King, well that sucks, but with no aggression shown on any streets, I'd bet this out.

[/ QUOTE ]

My opponents are weak and one of them is loose, do you think that the number of times I'm ahead and getting called is greater than the number of times I'm behind in order to justify a value bet? Or do I only need to be ahead 1/3 times to justify a value bet?

The fact that they cold called and then hung in there to the river makes one K likely I think. They haven't shown agression yet because they're weak. Or maybe I'm being paranoid.

Thanks for the replies.

[KingOtter]

[ QUOTE ]
So what the hell are they staying with? hopes and dreams?
I'm not being a dick, just trying to learn something here lol.
With two people on the flop with us, why can't we assume they dont have a flush draw? their betting sequence shows the following...

PreFlop: nothing too strong unless their slow playing KK,AA,
Flop: If they were slow playing with that hand, they'd want the flush draw out,
Turn/River: They'd Raise for value.

I can't see your typical donk not betting somewhere if they held the K, altho I've seen it before, i think its much more likely we may be up against a J, or flush draw rather than the overcard.

Please rip me up /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

A Jack... an A3, perhaps... maybe 77 and they don't think you have a pair.

It is hard to tell. Today I've been called down to the river by Ax off-suit about 3 times (and the river, was, of course, an A killing off a nice JJ and QQ as I recall, forget the 3rd hand). One fellow had no pair... just an A was good enough for him.

KO

[TALLBrad]

I tend to Bet. Many times you've got the Ax crowd hanging around hoping to hit. The bet will usually drops one of them out. It's a risk to the Passive K, but you were going to call down a single bet anyway.

If raised back to you I typically call unless I have a very strong read of the situation. What I've found is if you do fold to the raise you tend to get raised more on scary boards and put in difficult decisions.

[Angrymoog]

I think if youre prepared to call a bet on the river, you should bet instead.

When you check, yu allow your opponent to dictate which hands the money will go in with. As passive opponents they are likely to check all the hands you beat, and maybe a weak king, but bet every hand that beats you.

Bet the river. If it's raised thats a tough choice. Obviously youre beaten, but for table image purposes you should maybe call the raise. Otherwise you might give up an entire pot later to a bluff when someone remembers you folded to a river raise.

[@bsolute_luck]

i hate these situations because i always get in my mind they are bluffing and pay off for no damn good reason.

i hate all lines that could be taken in this hand really. this probably isn't what i'd do in the hand, but check the turn. folding would be based on a read of a flush draw firing.

if it goes check/check on the turn, i don't know. i'm only folding busted flush draws really, so i'll probably check/call.

again i hate all the lines i use in these hands and usually end up paying off for fear of being bluffed off- gotta work on that.

[Angrymoog]

I don't know what games you're playing in, but checking the turn? No way.

You have to bet the turn because you like to get paid off by bottom or middle pair, and make a flush draw put some money in the pot when there is one.

Being afraid of a an overcard because you were called seems a little weak tight. Many players simply want to either take a card off to see if they hit their Ace, or will definitely call down all the way with a jack.

I think you lose alot of equity by giving up on the hand.

[HentaiGaijin]

It was recommend that I grunch more, so here goes.

Our possible actions:

Check-Fold: This would be an incredibly weak play. Folding a strong pair to one overcard is a good way to never win any big pots.

Check-Call: We're seriously OOP, so we could check and call a bet, but this doesn't help us gain any real useful btion about what we're up against. UTG+1 would likely check to Button who would bet. He could have a K or it could be a position bet. Either way, it doesn't help us win the hand.

Check-Raise: If we think Button might bet, this could be an effective way of folding UTG+1. Choosing to check-raise in this spot will require some reads on our opponents. Is UTG+1 likely to check through? Is Button likely to bet? Is UTG+1 likely to fold against two cold? This might be a good option if the answer seems to be yes.

Bet-Fold: Opening with a bet here is a possibility. I don't think it will get anyone to fold, but we could reasonably fold to a reraise.

Bet-Call: Again, we could lead out with the intention of calling a reraise. This is better than Bet-Fold, because we have a backdoor diamond flush draw. If we call a reraise we can decide whether to continue based on the turn card.

Considering these options, I like the line of trying for a check-raise on the flop if we think a bet from the button is likely. If not, we should lead out and call a reraise and decide or next step based on the turn card.

---

Based on your actions of leading out on the flop and turn you have two options on the river:

Bet- If we bet we'll likely only be called by a king. A reraise would be bad.

Check-Call- Many loose-passive players will bet on the end with very little, so we can call a bet behind us without necessarily fearing a king.

I like the line of a check-call on the river, folding if it's two to us.

[Angrymoog]

[ QUOTE ]
Check-Call- Many loose-passive players will bet on the end with very little, so we can call a bet behind us without necessarily fearing a king.

I like the line of a check-call on the river, folding if it's two to us.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since when do passive players bet with weak holdings on the river? I think that would qualify them as a little less passive.

If our opponents were loose aggressive, i could definitely agree with check/call. But if youre really afraid of a King, why even continue after the flop gets called?

[HentaiGaijin]

[ QUOTE ]
Since when do passive players bet with weak holdings on the river? I think that would qualify them as a little less passive.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe my terminology is wrong? I'm talking about 40% VPIP players with low raise %s. These players seem to often bet the river when it is checked to them on the end. Weak holdings would mean bottom pair, weak kicker, etc.

They call you down because they want to show down their hand because "hey it might be good." They bet on the end because your check indicates weakness and they think their weak hand is suddenly good.

[Angrymoog]

Yes, Im aware of that type of player youre referring to. They like to call with anything, or bet if its checked to them. I don't think they qualify as passives. Theyre assuredly poor players, though. I would agree with you that check/call is a good option against these types.

What we dont know is if this was the type of player the OP was facing.

[Dave G.]

[ QUOTE ]
This would be an incredibly weak play. Folding a strong pair to one overcard is a good way to never win any big pots.

[/ QUOTE ]

Being a little melodramatic, aren't you? Our pair isn't "strong" at all. It's one pair, and it's not even top pair. A pair that's not top pair can never be considered "strong". I don't think my chances of winning a big pot in the future are going to disappear if I fold in this spot, since our chances of actually winning aren't all that great.

If a passive opponent bets at you here I think we can assume we're beaten. It's not my default play, and I wouldn't do it against an unknown, but if I have a good read on him, then I think ignoring that read is a great way to build a big pot with a second best hand. If you have a read, use it, don't throw your chips into a black hole.

There is no reason why folding this hand to a suitably predictable / passive opponent who has you drawing to 2 outs is "weak tight".

[Rev. Good Will]

hero bets for value, nice hand

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's what I'd do...

Pre-Flop: Raise (well, duh /images/graemlins/smile.gif )
Flop: Raise, two callers...that sucks (we can assume atleast one is on a flush)
Turn: Okay, phew no diamonds. Let's fire and see if somebody drops, okay [censored] they didn't.
River: 7, okay, my queens are looking good, I'd raise, if somebody lingerd along with a King, well that sucks, but with no aggression shown on any streets, I'd bet this out.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Thats one way. Sometimes it works, sometimes you pay off some guy with a king.

2. Another way is check/fold the flop.

3. Another way is bet/fold the flop and then check/fold the turn.

Pick 2 or 3 if you don't want to risk paying off the guy with the king rather nicely, which is probably about 1/2 the time with two callers who both call a flop bet after you raised preflop. The more people in the hand the greater the chance your beat. Heads up you bet all the way, 2 callers is borderline. Three flop callers and I check/fold the turn at most. If your going to bet the turn, your practically committing yourself to bet or call the river, and if your going to call the river, your usually better off bet/fold than check/call.

[KingOtter]

[ QUOTE ]
Being a little melodramatic, aren't you? Our pair isn't "strong" at all. It's one pair, and it's not even top pair. A pair that's not top pair can never be considered "strong". I don't think my chances of winning a big pot in the future are going to disappear if I fold in this spot, since our chances of actually winning aren't all that great.

If a passive opponent bets at you here I think we can assume we're beaten. It's not my default play, and I wouldn't do it against an unknown, but if I have a good read on him, then I think ignoring that read is a great way to build a big pot with a second best hand. If you have a read, use it, don't throw your chips into a black hole.

There is no reason why folding this hand to a suitably predictable / passive opponent who has you drawing to 2 outs is "weak tight".

[/ QUOTE ]

1. He's talking about on the river, so you're not drawing to two outs anymore.
2. Hentai was talking about on the river, if you checked and villain bet he could be betting a multitude of hands which are losers to your strong pair. Even LP's do this. It usually means they have at least a pair, and hope you've been betting down with overcards.
3. Second pair is still a very strong holding, especially when the overcard is a K. Kings are folded more often then Aces pre-flop.
4. With 9BB's in the pot he only has to be good 10% of the time to make the call on the river worth it.

KO

[Dave G.]

Oh yes, I seem to have interpreted it as refering to the turn. My mistake.

[Angrymoog]

The only thing I have to disagree with is that loose passive players bet weak pairs on the river after you check. Yes, there is definately a predominate type of fish that plays like this, but if they bet when checked to, they arent exactly passive. That's what I thought the definition of passive was. Maybe theyre only passive when OOP?

[KingOtter]

[ QUOTE ]
Been playing .5/1 on and off for the past 8 months and I still feel really lost when this happens.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty much I bet until I hit resistence on these cases. With my move up to 1/2 I'm getting duped a little bit more because the players are trickier, so I may start changing my strategy on these a bit (I've no clue how, yet), but honestly this is one of the risks you take being an aggressive player. Oh well... next time you'll have AA and take him.

Sometimes you hit that third Q on the turn or river and he will have wished he raised you early on to get you to fold (which is why giving free cards / slowplaying is bad... unless you truly have a monster).

KO

[Delzek15]

Correct... Value bet the river. No one has shown any aggression or sign of a K nor has any draw been completed except an unusual runner runner straight. Bet here.

[silkyslim]

Do you have SSH? There is a hand quiz very much like this. It says to value bet. So thats what I'd do (because I agree with Mioller's reasoning) pg. 304, #6 River play.

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
SSH hand quiz pg. 304, #6 River play.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hi Slim:

Three significant differences between this hand and the SSH example.

1. Hero here has two opponents on the river, in the SSH example there is only one.

2. Hero here is OOP. In SSH he has position.

3. Hero here had two cold callers. In SSH the two callers came from the blinds where people can be more loose with their calls.

Hero in this hand is in a far more tenuous position than in the example from SSH.

[hizo1]

Thanks, I don't remember that hand at all! I think I have to read SSHE again once I get it back from the guy I lent it to.

Being the weak tight river player that I am (grrrr) I checked and it got checked through. I think the donks showed J9 (sooted) and 88 and MHIG.