Don't think I can beat 1/2.

[HentaiGaijin]

I'm making alot of mistakes and psychological errors. I'm often not giving my opponents enough respect and I get really frustrated at the variance in my curve. Check this out:

http://www.extropica.com/images/progress_8200.jpg

That's 8200 hands of 1/2. Not many, but I'm down 100 BB and unable to get out of the red. Every time I hit up against the -60 BB bar I get knocked back down.

My bankroll really hasn't changed much from when I've started. I've cleared $200 in bonuses and have about $50 in rakeback due for last month.

I don't know what to do. I was hit with a hard downswing in .5/1 that caused me to quit for a few months, but I came back and beat that one and ended up in great shape so I moved up to 1/2. But this game is kicking my ass. I'm starting to get really steamed when someone draws out on me again and again with like 2 outer weak pairs making a set on the river, etc. But my biggest leak is just bad fundamental play, mistakes that I shouldn't be making but convince myself to make.

[HentaiGaijin]

Maybe if I take a break for a couple days, then drop to .5/1 for a couple thousand hands, I'll feel psychologically more fit to play in the 1/2 game.

[silkyslim]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm starting to get really steamed when someone draws out on me again and again with like 2 outer weak pairs making a set on the river, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is just variance and a sign that you are against weak opponents. Suckouts happen and you should know that from 5./1 especially.

[ QUOTE ]
But my biggest leak is just bad fundamental play, mistakes that I shouldn't be making but convince myself to make.


[/ QUOTE ]
Move back down to .5/1 and work on the fundamentals. Also, it sounds like you are not emotionally ready for swings. You can't avoid these, and need to keep calm to avoid busting.

[12ozLongneck]

Are you playing at the full tables, the 9 max tables or the 6 max tables?

[HentaiGaijin]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you playing at the full tables, the 9 max tables or the 6 max tables?

[/ QUOTE ]

Mostly 9 max.

[McGahee]

Here are my thoughts on my 2/4 run so far in my best Jim Mora voice:
"Winrate! Winrate? I just hope I can win a hand".

[LesWormMurphy]

You need to get yourself a copy of Small Stakes Hold 'Em by Ed Miller. If you devote yourself to that book and this site, in a month or so, most of your very obvious leaks should be plugged up.

It's really amazing how much one book and a website can help.

Trust me, that book is key to beating low-stakes hold'em.

If you are playing wrong FUNDAMENTALLY, then your not playing with pot/implied odds and pot equity. You aren't careful about position, you aren't counting how much $ money in the pot, nor particularly care how many people are in the hand. You'd rather check/fold your middle pair in a multiway 20BB pot, and you'd rather try to steal a 2BB pot with Ace-high-- if these are some of your characterisitcs, then you MUST read SSHE. It covers all this ground and much, much more.

[Duerig]

How many hands of .50/1.00 did you play? What was your winrate? I suggest 10k hands / 300 BBs (which ever takes _longer_) at each level before moving up. But I'm a nit.

[Sasnak]

[ QUOTE ]
But my biggest leak is just bad fundamental play, mistakes that I shouldn't be making but convince myself to make.

[/ QUOTE ]

Start right where you mentioned. Fundamental play.

Play tight in EP.
Play looser in LP.
Dump Axs early.
Don't cold call.
Raise first-in in LP.
Iso raise loose players.
Post hands.

A good dose of SSHE applied liberally wouldn't hurt either.

Good luck.

~

[HentaiGaijin]

[ QUOTE ]

You need to get yourself a copy of Small Stakes Hold 'Em by Ed Miller. If you devote yourself to that book and this site, in a month or so, most of your very obvious leaks should be plugged up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a very dog eared copy. It's one thing to read and reread another to know how to apply. It will come with time, I imagine, if I don't frustrate myself out of playing.

[HentaiGaijin]

[ QUOTE ]
How many hands of .50/1.00 did you play? What was your winrate? I suggest 10k hands / 300 BBs (which ever takes _longer_) at each level before moving up. But I'm a nit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I played ~10,000 hands with a ~2.5 win rate.

[shadow29]

http://members.cox.net/pimpbot9000/roflcopter.gif
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v332/shadow29/tumultuous.jpg

[tiltaholic]

why move up if you are playing badly? or why continue to play at a limit that upsets you if you are playing badly. sometimes when i know i am not playing my A game i, gasp, play a lower limit unil i work out my issues.

also: linky (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=micro&Number=2991989&Forum =,All_Forums,&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=29 88342&Search=true&where=&Name=9099&daterange=&newe rval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Po st2991989)

and finally, 8k hands? wtf????

[Shillx]

Hey,

Can you beat 1/2?? I have no idea.

Can any objective onlooker tell you if you can/can't beat 1/2 by reading a post that has you playing 8200 hands? No.

A lot of us are looking for the kind of comfort that you just can't find in 8k hands or even 20k or 30k hands. If you were to be at 5BB/100 over this span, it would be detrimental to actually think that you could continue it over the next 200k hands or whatever.

[kapw7]

[ QUOTE ]
But my biggest leak is just bad fundamental play, mistakes that I shouldn't be making but convince myself to make.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Post your marginal/incorrect hands that you are unsure of here.

2. Post (more) your opininon on hands of other posters.

It's not a shame to be flamed for an error. You don't post hands/opininons to show off and the ppl who reply are definitely not perfect. A lot of the cocky posters are just average players but a lot of other posters really know what they are talking about.

I've been posting a lot of my problematic hands here and I'm not a losing player (so far, so good).

Good luck

[kapw7]

Didn't want to show off but why not?

Nice thing is that my final upswing started when I switched to 3/6. Moving up after a 250BB downswing?

Best spot to do it.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y195/kapw7/graph.gif

[SeanSkill]

I am realy amazed by how few hands people on these boards play. 8200 hands is NOTHING! My stats for 1$/2$ were like 15k hands +2.76BB/100, 22K hands -.087 BB/100, 25k 2.51BB/100, 30k 3.13BB/100. you seriously need to understand that even 50k hands is a small sample size.

[kapw7]

[ QUOTE ]
I am realy amazed by how few hands people on these boards play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry doc. I have a real job. And a life.
I like them both.

[Saint_D]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am realy amazed by how few hands people on these boards play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry doc. I have a real job. And a life.
I like them both.

[/ QUOTE ]

[KingOtter]

You need to find a way to get the money out of the picture, and just focus on the hand, period.

If you're making mistakes and talking yourself into doing things you're not supposed to be doing, then it is a form of tilt, IMO, and it is probably money-based.

Remember, the bad decisions that you're making are the exact ones we force people to make when we play correctly. Essentially, you're being trapped by that which you know the most.

Take the money out of it, play the hand, and make good poker decisions.

I took the money out of my equation when I found I was focusing on it a bit much by setting myself a hand goal. I never really completed the hand goal itself, but the main reason I was doing it was to get to 1/2, and I'm there now, tearing up the place. I've been running real g00t.

KO

[llamaoo7]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am realy amazed by how few hands people on these boards play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry doc. I have a real job. And a life.
I like them both.*

[/ QUOTE ]

*And this is the microlimits.

[grjr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

You need to get yourself a copy of Small Stakes Hold 'Em by Ed Miller. If you devote yourself to that book and this site, in a month or so, most of your very obvious leaks should be plugged up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a very dog eared copy. It's one thing to read and reread another to know how to apply. It will come with time, I imagine, if I don't frustrate myself out of playing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to be sacriligious here for a second and recommend adding another book to your library. It's "Middle Limit Holdem Poker" by Bob Ciaffone.

When you first start reading it you will think "What a bunch of weaksauce this is". But after a while you will realize that it will help balance out all the testosterone based posts here. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

It's helped me to understand that "pedal to the floor" aggression is great when you're catching cards but it sure bites when people are sucking out on you. If your tilt problem is as bad as mine then this might give you another perspective.

[shadow29]

[ QUOTE ]
But after a while you will realize that it will help balance out all the testosterone based posts here. /images/graemlins/grin.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

The strategies espoused on these forums are very often not aggressive enough.

And I'm not just saying this because I'm me.

[Angrymoog]

While I think it's very honest and proves that you are critiquing your ability to play, you can't decide whether you're playing good poker or bad poker over 8k hands.

This is poker, and the irony as stated in SSH is that your results in the short run rarely reflect the correctness of your play. \

I think it's important to try and find leaks in your game, but if you can't really put your finger on exactly what youre doing wrong, then maybe you ARENT doing as much wrong as you think? You can't cause players not to hit two outters on you, all you can do is make the correct decision.

I think if you dont have a definite reason for why you think youre playing bad, you should stick to your guns, continue to play correctly, and the results will work themselves out.

[McGahee]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But after a while you will realize that it will help balance out all the testosterone based posts here. /images/graemlins/grin.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

The strategies espoused on these forums are very often not aggressive enough.

And I'm not just saying this because I'm me.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's tough to generalize, but IMO it's too aggressive on average.
It's ok to assume that most Party .5/1 players are bad, but for some reason a lot of posters assume the average Party .5/1 player is a maniac instead of a passive nut-pedaling calling station, which most of them are.

I mean - I read posts almost daily where people want to "raise for a free card" with overcards OOP in a 6-way pot - it's ridiculous sometimes.

[SamLuc]

I'm a relative beginner but you should probably think about game selection in addition to what the others have mentioned. I not only look for the softest games I can find but there are certain types of games I know I don't play well against. If there are 3 or more lag maniacs at the table I generally don't do very well so I will look for another table. Some time I will learn how to beat those games but why bother now when I can usually find an easier game.

[grjr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But after a while you will realize that it will help balance out all the testosterone based posts here. /images/graemlins/grin.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

The strategies espoused on these forums are very often not aggressive enough.

And I'm not just saying this because I'm me.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's tough to generalize, but IMO it's too aggressive on average.
It's ok to assume that most Party .5/1 players are bad, but for some reason a lot of posters assume the average Party .5/1 player is a maniac instead of a passive nut-pedaling calling station, which most of them are.

I mean - I read posts almost daily where people want to "raise for a free card" with overcards OOP in a 6-way pot - it's ridiculous sometimes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, that is exactly one of the situations I was thinking of. I was about to post a hand example showing this but you have saved me the trouble. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[HentaiGaijin]

[ QUOTE ]
You need to find a way to get the money out of the picture, and just focus on the hand, period.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, this is the wrong impression of me. I make a nice salary and the money I initially started playing with has been doubled. I'm playing at a limit I feel financially comfortable with and it won't bother me if I bust out, although I'd drop down before that happened. It's not the money, its the sense of progress and success (or lack thereof).

I don't play other casino games. I don't make prop bets. I play poker because I believe it is fundamentally a game of skill. Skills I can learn. When I hit a losing streak, I feel like I'm failing at something I should be doing better at.

8000 hands of 1/2 and 10000 hands of .5/1 might not seem like much, but it's a lot for me. I have a full time job and do a lot of other things besides poker (I'm a hardcore computer gamer and I have a girlfriend to manage). I'm upping the number of hands I play a week, but I have no interest in going pro or becoming a poker god.

I apologize for whining on the boards. I'll figure out what I'm doing wrong and keep working at it. As long as I move down when I feel my bankroll is threatened by the stakes, I can probably keep playing poker for a long time to come. But I'd like to get to a point where I feel I'm doing well due to my knowledge and ability and not to the whims of luck.

[Angrymoog]

[ QUOTE ]
When I hit a losing streak, I feel like I'm failing at something I should be doing better at.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what I was referring to in my post above if you didnt read it. Your results in the short term do not neccessarily reflect the correctness of your play. You may be playing very well and there's nothing for you to "fix."

There's a section towards the beginning of SSH that talks about the normal method of learning we use. IE trial and error. That simply doesnt work with poker, where your actual results can vary wildly from your intended results.

[Saint_D]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You need to find a way to get the money out of the picture, and just focus on the hand, period.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, this is the wrong impression of me. I make a nice salary and the money I initially started playing with has been doubled. I'm playing at a limit I feel financially comfortable with and it won't bother me if I bust out, although I'd drop down before that happened. It's not the money, its the sense of progress and success (or lack thereof).

I don't play other casino games. I don't make prop bets. I play poker because I believe it is fundamentally a game of skill. Skills I can learn. When I hit a losing streak, I feel like I'm failing at something I should be doing better at.

8000 hands of 1/2 and 10000 hands of .5/1 might not seem like much, but it's a lot for me. I have a full time job and do a lot of other things besides poker (I'm a hardcore computer gamer and I have a girlfriend to manage). I'm upping the number of hands I play a week, but I have no interest in going pro or becoming a poker god.

I apologize for whining on the boards. I'll figure out what I'm doing wrong and keep working at it. As long as I move down when I feel my bankroll is threatened by the stakes, I can probably keep playing poker for a long time to come. But I'd like to get to a point where I feel I'm doing well due to my knowledge and ability and not to the whims of luck.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is my shot at 1/2 so far. I don't think you are whining exactly. You feel frustrated and are looking to improve your game. Best reason to post IMHO.

Notice anything familiar about this graph? You are not alone. Changing limits is a big change. Especially when you are fully immersed in .5/1 strategy. I was crushing .5/1 for 4bb/100. I dropped back to get some ego boost and found that 1/2 had messed up my .5/1 game.

This is pretty common when you are training. If this was golf, you might go to work on your follow through, and your shoulders would get all out of whack. Then you have to come back and fix that. Same thing in poker. Isolate one leak at a time, fix it. Fix the problems fixing the leak gave you. Move on.

My plan, and yours should be the same I think. Is to power through to 10K hands, or drop limits when I lose 1/2 my BR. Then re-evaluate your game.

http://darksun.lunarpages.com/images/1-2-2k.png

Currently I need to tame my overagression. I really struggled getting to where I even could play agressive. Now I am overboard and I need to dial it back a little. Which means folding more, because my VP$IP is skirting the top of the sanity range.

GL bro.

-D

[Angrymoog]

The trouble with the gold analogy is that in golf, you can fix a problem and see an immediate result. Poker is not the same.

[grjr]

[ QUOTE ]

Currently I need to tame my overagression. I really struggled getting to where I even could play agressive. Now I am overboard and I need to dial it back a little. Which means folding more, because my VP$IP is skirting the top of the sanity range.

GL bro.

-D

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously, if you haven't read Middle Limit Holdem Poker buy it and read it. It's the perfect balancing act to SSHE. You won't agree with half of the examples at first (and they have a LOT of example hands) but after a while you start to see the merit in some of them. Not all, but some. It gives your brain a good workout.

The middle limits they're talking about are B&M 10/20 through 30/60 but from the examples they give 10/20 is pretty much like a Party 1/2 game and so forth.

[KingOtter]

[ QUOTE ]

I apologize for whining on the boards. I'll figure out what I'm doing wrong and keep working at it. As long as I move down when I feel my bankroll is threatened by the stakes, I can probably keep playing poker for a long time to come. But I'd like to get to a point where I feel I'm doing well due to my knowledge and ability and not to the whims of luck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then why do you keep doing things you know are wrong? Or are you still learning what is right and wrong? What's the level of mistakes that you feel you are making?

I don't play perfect poker. I fold, and then look back at the odds and see I could have called. Or I peel one off knowing I don't have odds, but I'm not really convinced the villain really has anything. I used to think everyone who was betting was bluffing, but I've come to realize they usually aren't (with some exceptions).

First shot at 1/2 I made was well-rolled, but I quickly went down about 100BB so I moved back down to .5/1. Second one I was under-rolled and had no business being there, so I went back down to .5/1 (and still almost busted out). I was well-rolled again, and actually had about a 100BB downturn at .5/1 so I figured that I might as well come out of the downturn making twice the money, and I moved up.

I'm playing the exact same poker I was playing at .5/1, and so far I've been doing pretty well. I'm actually very close to being bankrolled for 2/4, but I have a lot more to learn at 1/2, I think.

One thing I've used as a confidence booster in the past is www.pokergrader.com. (http://www.pokergrader.com.) I have no clue how accurate it is, or what kind of criteria it uses, but I love putting my hand histories in there and seeing that I made more than it said was probable... or it telling me how many times the worst card possible fell, when I had a bad night. It isn't always right, but it can be fun.

KO

Hi. This is my first post, and it isn't a very bright one. Where du you find the curve-option in PT?

[Saint_D]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Currently I need to tame my overagression. I really struggled getting to where I even could play agressive. Now I am overboard and I need to dial it back a little. Which means folding more, because my VP$IP is skirting the top of the sanity range.

GL bro.

-D

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously, if you haven't read Middle Limit Holdem Poker buy it and read it. It's the perfect balancing act to SSHE. You won't agree with half of the examples at first (and they have a LOT of example hands) but after a while you start to see the merit in some of them. Not all, but some. It gives your brain a good workout.

The middle limits they're talking about are B&M 10/20 through 30/60 but from the examples they give 10/20 is pretty much like a Party 1/2 game and so forth.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the tip. Between that and someone telling me I have developed reliable and detectable tells online(!) I hope to be back in the upward trend soon.

[ QUOTE ]
The trouble with the golf analogy is that in golf, you can fix a problem and see an immediate result. Poker is not the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

No analogy is perfect. In my analogy, you started doing something better, but got worse results cause something else go out of whack. Golf, bowling, tennis, what have you have the same kind of patterns when you focus on one part of your game. Poker does have some stats that converge fast. Watch your VP$IP/PFR anad WSD% for example.

[ QUOTE ]
Hi. This is my first post, and it isn't a very bright one. Where du you find the curve-option in PT?

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean the graph? It's a seperate program. Poker Grapher. Works with poker tracker. Hard to find the download, but not too hard. Poke around google a little.

[ QUOTE ]
Poker grader makes me feel better

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too usually.

-D