Please tell me how I should have played 88 [Archive]

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Mariogs379

07-31-2005, 04:11 PM

I know I butchered this hand but here it is:
PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 4 folds, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, UTG+1 raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (6 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 calls.

River: (8 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 9 BB

Tell me how I could have done better and saved bets...I assume I was beaten
-Mario

dirty moose

07-31-2005, 04:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I know I butchered this hand but here it is:
PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 4 folds, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, UTG+1 raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (6 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 calls.

River: (8 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 9 BB

Tell me how I could have done better and saved bets...I assume I was beaten
-Mario

[/ QUOTE ]

dont 3 bet the flop and flop with the 2nd overcard

POKhER

07-31-2005, 04:14 PM

This is how I play this:

Complete the SB and see the flop cheaply.

flop: Bet, Raised... Fold.

Or...
Flop:Check, Fold.

Why bet turn then fold river ?
POKhER
p.s. POST IN MICRO FORUM

bernie

07-31-2005, 04:22 PM

You read Hellmuth's book or something?

Fold the flop.

If you're going to blow that many chips, you may as well blow another BB and call the river.

b

spaminator101

07-31-2005, 05:20 PM

you my friend are stupid and i do think he read helmuths book helmuth makes stupid plays like that all the time

Mariogs379

07-31-2005, 05:21 PM

is the concensus that i played the hand too aggressively like hellmuth would have?

spaminator101

07-31-2005, 05:22 PM

no the concencus is that you played the hand stupidly like helmuth would have

Ianco15

07-31-2005, 05:33 PM

Explain to me why you 3 bet the flop.

spaminator101

07-31-2005, 05:36 PM

ill tell you why he three bet the flop because he thinks helmuth is the greatest player to ever play the game

Andrew Smith

07-31-2005, 06:04 PM

I don't raise preflop.

I bet the flop and fold to the raise.

TheBlueMonster

07-31-2005, 08:14 PM

I agree he played the hand terribly....but that doesn't change the fact that you, Mr. Spaminator, sound like a moron.

Mariogs379

07-31-2005, 08:51 PM

I 3 bet the flop because frequently what I find is that I'll take the weak lead with the first bet and my opponent'll raise simply because he thinks I was hoping that he had nothing so when he raises he assumes I'll only call or reraise with a legitimate hand. So I tried representing a real hand because I had encountered the raise so frequently I thought that a lot of them simply we're poppin me back wiht nothing. Should I play 88 like other lower pairs and simply call, hope to flop a set, and then "no set, no bet"? Hellmuth advocates raising or reraising preflop and then betting out to represent a higher pocket pair or that you connected with the flop with an A or K. What do y'all think about all of this?

MicroBob

07-31-2005, 09:12 PM

it is pretty much agreed around here that ignoring hellmuth's ideas would be your best bet.

SoftcoreRevolt

07-31-2005, 09:19 PM

Raising this preflop is correct. There has been one limper and you likely have a big equity edge here.

Bet the flop, call the raise, fold the turn.

Mariogs379

07-31-2005, 09:46 PM

sorry, i understand not calling the bet on the turn if he does bet it, but why would i call his raise if im not gonna call his bet on fourth street? why not just cut my losses after he raises?
and whats wrong with hellmuth's advice? generally it seems sound...

SoftcoreRevolt

07-31-2005, 09:54 PM

Hellmuth's advice is too tight preflop and way way too aggressive post flop for Loose Passive games.

You can fold the flop if you want, but in this case I'd call here so I A. Don't appear Weak and B. Because there is only one overcard to my eights, plus a backdoor straight draw. So while we only have 3.5 outs now, our implied odds here give us just enough to peel and see if we could improve enough on the turn to stay in this hand.

We don't, and there's now two broadways on the board.

Mariogs379

07-31-2005, 09:56 PM

ok so how can you tweak hellmuth's advice to be basically perfect for loose passive small stakes games?

MicroBob

07-31-2005, 10:01 PM

no tweaking involved.

Get Getting Started in Holdem by Ed Miller, Winning Low Limit Holdem 3rd edition by Lee jones, and Small Stakes Holdem by Ed Miller.

(later you can also get Holdem for Advanced Players by Sklansky and Malmuth) and Theory of Poker by Sklansky.

You know the rules of the game now. You can pretty much throw the limit-section of Hellmuth's book in the trash (although the other sections aren't completely unreasonable if you are new to that particular game)

Mariogs379

07-31-2005, 10:05 PM

Well so far I've read hellmuth's book, the winning players guide to texas holdem, Theory of Poker, Tournament Poker, Holdem for Advanced Players, Small Stakes Holdem, and Brunson's two sections on limit holdem (Vol. 1 and 2). Out of the instructional ones on holdem which is the best?

MicroBob

07-31-2005, 10:10 PM

is the 2nd one a Ken Warren book??

SSHE is easily the best.
HEFAP is obviously quite good too.

TOP is not the same kind of 'instructional guide'.

Seriously...I don't see how anyone could possibly have read all those books and not know the answer themselves.
In the very least, it should be completely obvious why Hellmuth's advice is inferior.

wabe

07-31-2005, 10:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
sorry, i understand not calling the bet on the turn if he does bet it, but why would i call his raise if im not gonna call his bet on fourth street? why not just cut my losses after he raises?
and whats wrong with hellmuth's advice? generally it seems sound...

[/ QUOTE ]
Because he might bet that way with an AK/AQ. You likely want to check and fold to a bet on 4th street if an 8 doesn't fall. Also, you don't post any reads on these players, so it's hard to tell how they play. Is UTG a LAG/maniac type of player, or is he a tight/passive type of player?

For future reference, these types of posts will get better replies in the microlimits forum.

Sakuraba

07-31-2005, 10:55 PM

Read (actually study) them again in this order.

Small Stakes Holdem
Theory of Poker
Holdem for Advanced Players (optional)

If you plan on playing tournaments, reread

TPFAP
and buy Harrington on Holdem Vol 1 and 2

MicroBob

07-31-2005, 11:15 PM

this is good advice.

although I still suspect the original poster would also benefit from GSIH and/or WWLHE vol. 3 before SSHE.
(with the caveat that he actually 'study' them)

FWIW - When I was brand new I came VERY close to coming on one of the Hellmuth book-bashing threads and saying "i don't think it's THAT bad. what's the problem?"

this was BEFORE I had read any other poker book (and was over a year before SSHE had even been published).

It's not that uncommon to think that Phil's book is pretty decent IF you are a new player. but once you see the other books out there (particularly the 2+2 books) I think one should not have too tough a time seeing where some of the flaws are.

FWIW - there are many posters around here who believe (or have observed) that Phil is NOT a good limit cash-game player at various limits. I haven't observed enough to really know myself....but some of his ideas lead me to believe this is likely correct.

Sakuraba

08-01-2005, 12:42 AM

You are right about GSIH or WLLHE. There is absolutely no doubt the OP would benefit greatly from reading those books first.

Ironically, I just wrote the following in your UB pro tip thread regarding Phil's book. Despite what I wrote there, I would have won more early on if I had read something better. (I did stumble upon TOP not long after luckily)

"I originally started with this strategy also. I did add in his majority play hands pretty quickly.

I hardly knew the rules of poker and had only read Phil's book, but I was able to beat Party 50/1 and 10 SnGs pretty easily. Obviously, my win rate went up when I found 2+2 books and forums, but it is pretty easy to beat low limit games simply following Phil's advice and using your head a little.

I ran pretty good right away or I would have busted out early (since I was way underbankrolled), but I am pretty sure I had a positive expectation after having read just his book.
"

spaminator101

08-01-2005, 12:36 PM

i would say that the ss2 advice is good but its not complete it doesnt go into a lot of detail i havent read many 2+2 books though and y am i a moron

08-01-2005, 05:01 PM

I don't think this was a terrible hand for you considering that you have a certain strategy with the rebet. However, I would only use that strategy if I could get a good read on somebody. Here are some things to think about, though it would help if you knew whether or not yor opponents were playing conservative or aggressive.

First, you are out of position. Second, if it was a conservative player who raised you on the flop I would have probably folded with the second pair as he would probably have Js or better. If he was aggressive player I would have called to take a look at the turn. If your opponent had you beaten with Qs or less, the Kc on the turn gave you a chance to steal to pot with a decent sized raise, as you would represent a pair of K or the flush draw.