Raised on the turn

[Easystreet]

Here is a common situation, villain is unknown having recently joined the game, not played any hands so far so seems tight.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB folds, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 calls, Button folds, SB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (7 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, SB folds, UTG folds, Hero??????

[Dave G.]

Hero calls down without a read. Regardless of what your read is, you're at least calling the turn.

[KingOtter]

My read on this type of play is a flopped set, typically. Although some really bad players do this when they've gotten a flush draw on the turn.

If you fold, you need to pay careful attention because they'll try it on you again. I do fold this, sometimes, but usually with a good read. And the pot here is pretty big.

I'd probably call this down.

KO

[xGoreDudex]

Pre Flop: Raise instead of calling.
Flop: Looks good.
Turn: folding and calling both suck, raise. If your capped
check/fold river UI imo.

Gl.

[@bsolute_luck]

raise preflop. why didn't you raise?

seems tight? he'll cold call 2 on the flop and then raise here on a 9/images/graemlins/club.gif that doesn't complete any draws? the only hands i can put reasonably on is: delayed trip 6s, 2s, or trip 9s, or J9s.

i think you're toast. maybe others will give % of times you will be good against a tricky played flush/straight draw here to call profitably.

[shadow29]

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: folding and calling both suck, raise. If your capped
check/fold river UI imo.


[/ QUOTE ]

!!!!

[Easystreet]

[ QUOTE ]
raise preflop. why didn't you raise?


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't usually raise AJ o/s in this position, is it a mistake not to do so?

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
raise preflop. why didn't you raise?


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't usually raise AJ o/s in this position, is it a mistake not to do so?

[/ QUOTE ]

with a limper already in: yah. i say it that way only because if the table is tight and i'm first to enter from EP, i limp sometimes.

[Deamon2]

does o/s mean offsuit or offsuit and suited? if you're not raising AJs it is a very big mistake. Not raising AJo is much less of a mistake. It generally makes the hand easier to play, however, so it's recommended.

anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong

[KingOtter]

[ QUOTE ]
raise preflop. why didn't you raise?

seems tight? he'll cold call 2 on the flop and then raise here on a 9/images/graemlins/club.gif that doesn't complete any draws? the only hands i can put reasonably on is: delayed trip 6s, 2s, or trip 9s, or J9s.

i think you're toast. maybe others will give % of times you will be good against a tricky played flush/straight draw here to call profitably.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, he's getting 11:2 to call down. That's about 5.5:1.

He's got 2 outs vs. a non-J set, and ~4 outs vs. a 2 pair. He certainly doesn't have ODDS to call, but I'm not automatically convinced he's absolutely behind an unknown. Unknown may have A9, and be a complete fruitloop.

But he's got to be good 18% (5.5:1) of the time, and ~8% (complete WAG approximation of draws) of the time he'll hit something that improves him beyond the opponents hand.

It ain't a sure thing, but he's got enough chance that I think a call is in order, IMO.

KO

[Easystreet]

o/s means off suit. I always raise AJ suited.

[therockofgibraltar]

raise pf.
flop is good.
I would call the turn and check/call the river. If you had a better read, you could fold this but without it, I would go to the showdown.

[Easystreet]

[ QUOTE ]
He's got 2 outs vs. a non-J set,

KO

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand this, I don't think I have any outs vs a set.

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
does o/s mean offsuit or offsuit and suited? if you're not raising AJs it is a very big mistake. Not raising AJo is much less of a mistake. It generally makes the hand easier to play, however, so it's recommended.

anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong

[/ QUOTE ]

i'd be more tempted to not raise AJs than AJo. my thinking is the exact opposite of yours.

[therockofgibraltar]

I think you got this upside down /images/graemlins/wink.gif

AJs plays good in multiway also, so calling ain't that bad (although I raise it). AJo plays better in short (in my experience at least) so raise to drive people out.

[Easystreet]

[ QUOTE ]

i'd be more tempted to not raise AJs than AJo. my thinking is the exact opposite of yours.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is interesting and tends to go against what I have read in several poker books, could you explain your thinking a bit more on this. The way I see it, if I raise from MP with AJ o/s and someone 3 bets I am going to be rather concerned. If on the other hand I raise with AJ suited and someone 3 bets, I am still going to be concerned but if I pick up a flush draw on the flop, it gives me more options.

[POKhER]

MP1 Raise, EP maybe call.

flop: Fine
Turn: Call down UI
River: check/call UI

AGAINST: pair turned 2pair, Set slow played, Flush draw.... hmm


EDIT: Just saw pot 5:1 sucks... FOLD UNKNOWMN

POKhER

[aK13]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
does o/s mean offsuit or offsuit and suited? if you're not raising AJs it is a very big mistake. Not raising AJo is much less of a mistake. It generally makes the hand easier to play, however, so it's recommended.

anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong

[/ QUOTE ]

i'd be more tempted to not raise AJs than AJo. my thinking is the exact opposite of yours.

[/ QUOTE ]

AJs has more preflop equity than AJo. AJs should be raised 100% of the time here.

I would raise AJo here as well.

EDIT: Please explain why you believe AJs is not raise-worthy, but AJo is.

[cfjr2]

vs. non J set you have a pair of J. There are 2 J's left so you have 2 outs vs. any other lower set.

[Jaran]

Ummmmmm, a second J gives a lower set a FH, dude.

-Jaran

[silkyslim]

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: folding and calling both suck, raise. If your capped
check/fold river UI imo.


[/ QUOTE ]
Can u explain in detail why you would do such a thing?

[cfjr2]

you're right - that's what i get for going too fast. In that case not sure what the 2 outs were supposed to be

[MrEngenic]

You are raised with TPTK on the turn on a non threatening board. Since it's an unknown, you should call down because you never know what he would raise you with it could be something like KJ or QJ.
Since he coldcalls the flop after you raise I would put him on a slowplayed set here if I had to guess.

Against some players I would fold this.

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
does o/s mean offsuit or offsuit and suited? if you're not raising AJs it is a very big mistake. Not raising AJo is much less of a mistake. It generally makes the hand easier to play, however, so it's recommended.

anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong

[/ QUOTE ]

i'd be more tempted to not raise AJs than AJo. my thinking is the exact opposite of yours.

[/ QUOTE ]

AJs has more preflop equity than AJo. AJs should be raised 100% of the time here.

I would raise AJo here as well.

EDIT: Please explain why you believe AJs is not raise-worthy, but AJo is.

[/ QUOTE ]

i was simply commenting on this:
[ QUOTE ]
does o/s mean offsuit or offsuit and suited? if you're not raising AJs it is a very big mistake. Not raising AJo is much less of a mistake. It generally makes the hand easier to play, however, so it's recommended.

anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong

[/ QUOTE ]

i wasn't commenting on the raising of either hand, just this mindset that i would be more comfortable playing AJs unraised than AJo- maybe i'm mistaken.

and regarding the hand posted: i mistakenly thought OP was in UTG+1 and not MP where i would not limp either hand and i did state in my first post that the hand should have been raised.

[Shillx]

Playing this against an unknown is tough. Against a really bad player, you are normally looking some kind of 2-pair here. Against a meh tighty you are [censored] since he has a set. Against someone who plays well postflop, you are almost always looking at KJ or maybe even QJ or AJ (to a lesser extent AJ).

The problem is that bad players will also do this kind of thing with hands like KQ /images/graemlins/club.gif (and they will also bet the river when they miss) so you can't just call here to see if you improve. You pretty much have to make up your mind if you are calling down or folding. To be totally honest, I don't know how much it matters here.

Brad

[Dave G.]

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: folding and calling both suck, raise. If your capped
check/fold river UI imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is dreadful advice. Absolutely terrible. Raising the turn is stupid when we can't be sure that we're ahead anymore. Raising and then folding the river UI makes me want to puke.

[Angrymoog]

If you would've raised preflop the pot would be either bigger, or the same with fewer players and I think woudve been easier to play.

In this case, Id call it down UI, being pretty sure Im toast. Even though youre likely behind, consider that the situation is almost unavoidable. You should make up for the pot you lose here by winning as many bets or more from someone else who has TPTK when you have a set. With that considered, theres the chance this player has two pair or some other holding like a pair and flush draw. Since were not sure he has a set, I think you should be calling down.