Would you rather raise KJo or 55 UTG in a TAG game?

[kurosh]

Would you rather raise KJo or 55 UTG in a TAG game?

[TheHammer24]

KJ

[dozer]

55

[JoshuaD]

KJ. 55 you've got to commit to a showdown HU against a TAG alot of the time. KJ you can manipulate your EV by folding/raising in good spots.

[pauliewalnuts]

KJ, because if you get 3bet, you know youre behind and can act accordingly. With 55, if you get 3bet and the flop is 8J6, you have to play some poker to figure if youre ahead of AK or behind to TT.

[dozer]

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KJ. 55 you've got to commit to a showdown HU against a TAG alot of the time. KJ you can manipulate your EV by folding/raising in good spots.

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I thought with KJ if you are called or 3-betted, you are dominated most of the time.

[DCWGaming]

having KJ v AK isnt as bad as having 55 v 66-AA

Could cost you more if you play too aggressively, but in terms of % to win, you're better off.

[JoshuaD]

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KJ. 55 you've got to commit to a showdown HU against a TAG alot of the time. KJ you can manipulate your EV by folding/raising in good spots.

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I thought with KJ if you are called or 3-betted, you are dominated most of the time.

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55 is in similiar trouble. The problem with 55 is when you get a flop of T73, or even Q84, you're gonna wanna take a direct route to a showdown, while with KJ, you can find alot more folds and value raises, increasing your EV.

[Piiop]

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55 is in similiar trouble. The problem with 55 is when you get a flop of T73, or even Q84, you're gonna wanna take a direct route to a showdown, while with KJ, you can find alot more folds and value raises, increasing your EV.

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I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this. How will you be playing 55 or KJ differently on these two flops that will allow you to increase your EV with KJo?

[JoshuaD]

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55 is in similiar trouble. The problem with 55 is when you get a flop of T73, or even Q84, you're gonna wanna take a direct route to a showdown, while with KJ, you can find alot more folds and value raises, increasing your EV.

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I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this. How will you be playing 55 or KJ differently on these two flops that will allow you to increase your EV with KJo?

[/ QUOTE ]

KJ will be able to fold out, while 55 will often be commited to a showdown.

In an "all-in" situation, 55 will probably do better against our opponents ranges of hands. However, we're not all-in, and we can control the action on later streets.

With 55, unless we flop a set, a large percentage of the time we've commited to a showdown on the flop. At that point, we're just throwing our 2.5BB's in and hoping it works out for us.

On the other hand, we can fold out alot of the times with KJo, and value raise the particularly good flops. So we get more in when we're likely to be ahead, and less in when we're behind.

55 may win more often, but we'll win more $$ on the good flops and lose less $ on the bad ones with KJo.

[WillyTrailer]

I think he's saying that it's much easier to play KJ correctly postflop. You'll be able to get in more money when you're ahead because it will be much clearer when that is and it will more often be clearer when you're behind with the KJ and should get away.

I'm not sure if it's clear state in terms of E.V. but I think KJ allows you to get full value from your hand more frequently than 55 does....err...even further, I think with KJ you more frequently extract the maximum when ahead and lose the minimum when you're behind than you do with 55.


WT

[Piiop]

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KJo, and value raise the particularly good flops

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I think this is what I'm disagreeing with. In a game that's playing tight and aggressively, I don't see KJo being able to make too many "value raises" and be able to get in that much more when we're ahead. More specifically, how many flops that we see can we call good AND be able to extract a lot of value from?

With 55, I would see winning more often like you said, but not winning a large amount. Certainly we'd be calling down more with 55, but won't we sometimes be folding incorrectly with KJo anyway?

I'm not so sure KJo would come out on top, tho I'm not decided either way. Regardless, the debate is rather pointless, no?

[BigEndian]

We're assuming a game where there's been a lot of fold-through to the blinds, yes? I would want 55 for it's showdown value. Nothing more complicated than that.

An even better strategy with 55 is to simply call. The raising standards of the TAGs behind you, especially in late position, will be extremely wide. They'll have a very tough time overcoming the voice that's been engrained in their head to raise limpers with hands like KJ, Axs, yada, yada. Everything else is how well do you play post flop.

I also limp my medium pairs and frequently my big pockets without planning to LRR if there's few opponents for the same reason. If you raise in early position with these hands on a TAG table where everyone is playing ABC, you'll likely be disappointed with the results.

- Jim

[KyleM]

kj. i don't see why would you raise 55 UTG anyway...

[sfer]

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kj. i don't see why would you raise 55 UTG anyway...

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Think harder about it. I did yesterday at a table with 9 other 2+2ers.

[kurosh]

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kj. i don't see why would you raise 55 UTG anyway...

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In a tough game, it's a very bad idea to raise either of them. Most of the time you'll be isolated, OOP, with a dominated hand and against an aggressive player.

[KyleM]

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kj. i don't see why would you raise 55 UTG anyway...

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Think harder about it. I did yesterday at a table with 9 other 2+2ers.

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and i don't see why you would want to play at that table either...

[W. Deranged]

1. Calling with either of these hands UTG at a table of TAGs is bad. Just thought I'd get that out there.

2. I like a raise with 55 and a fold with KJ. There are two primary differences between the two hands, but one of them is a much stronger effect and ends up dictating the play:

-KJ will be easier to play post-flop, in that you can find more value bet/raises and can get away from the hand more easily when you miss. 55 is often committed to a showdown.

-55 is much less likely to be dominated.

I think the domination issue is much more important. If you raise UTG with KJ, any hand that plays along save for the blinds is going to be better than yours, and you will be forced to play out of position. While KJ will be easier to get away from if you miss, it will be harder to get away from if you flop a dominated pair. You will spew a ton of chips if you connect with an out-kicked pair (though many of the hands that dominate you will identify themselves with a pre-flop reraise).

If you look at how the pre-flop matchups are going to look here, it becomes quite clear why 55 is a BETTER raise than KJ (though it may be a fold). Against many hands pre-flop that TAGs will fold to a UTG raise, the 55 is going to be roughly a coin-flip. That means that, with the dead money from the blinds, many TAG opponents will be making bad folds on a Fundamental Theorem basis against the 55 raise. Against KJ, on the other hand, most hands will be in a more clear ahead/behind position, and are thus much more likely to respond to the pre-flop raise correctly.

Hence, 55 is a better raise because it is more likely to encourage mistakes from our opponents.

It's not totally clear that it is worth a play here, but I think a raise is better against a table of tags than a limp (you will not have odds to play for set value alone, clearly).

I'd be raising 88 against TAGs UTG automatically here, and I think 55 and 88 will play quite similarly overall given that you are against TAGS, since TAGs aren't particularly likely to play hands that contain 6s, 7s, and 8s.

-WD

[PokerBob]

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kj. i don't see why would you raise 55 UTG anyway...

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Think harder about it. I did yesterday at a table with 9 other 2+2ers.

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In this game you likely can raise any 2 UTG and scare the [censored] out of them

[KyleM]

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kj. i don't see why would you raise 55 UTG anyway...

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Think harder about it. I did yesterday at a table with 9 other 2+2ers.

[/ QUOTE ]

In this game you likely can raise any 2 UTG and scare the [censored] out of them

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i agree, but it's still a big risk, and a -ev game to play in (compared to other ss games). and you don't get paid off as well if you hit a set.

[W. Deranged]

Kyle,

FYI, the game I assume he's talking about was played primarily for entertainment value and not for monetary gain.

It is an important question for anyone looking to play at big limits sometime down the road. It's also a good theory workout.

[KyleM]

I agree its a good question. I guess I was just looking at it from a "how would I play these hands in a small stakes game?" perspective, as this is the small stakes forum and all. I do admit raising with 55 UTG would be better than raising KJ UTG if it was indeed a table full of TAGs, not in a small stakes game though... not one I'd voluntarily play in at least lol.

[jogsxyz]

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1. Calling with either of these hands UTG at a table of TAGs is bad. Just thought I'd get that out there.

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That says it all. Toss the two junk hands UTG in a 9 or 10-handed game.

[sfer]

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and i don't see why you would want to play at that table either...

[/ QUOTE ]

Because playing smart opponents is fun and I think I had an edge at that table.

[sfer]

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1. Calling with either of these hands UTG at a table of TAGs is bad. Just thought I'd get that out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

That says it all. Toss the two junk hands UTG in a 9 or 10-handed game.

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Wrong. You missed an adjective. There are plenty of games where playing lots of hands UTG is fine, and KJs and 55 are no exceptions. I would fold KJo UTG baring very few exceptions.

[jason_t]

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kj. i don't see why would you raise 55 UTG anyway...

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Think harder about it. I did yesterday at a table with 9 other 2+2ers.

[/ QUOTE ]

In this game you likely can raise any 2 UTG and scare the [censored] out of them

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Or, if you have my image, limping UTG scares the [censored] out of them.