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AngelicPenguin

07-31-2005, 01:08 AM

Edit: oops I submitted prior to adding my info.

Villain was loose and very passive and had called down a lot with crap. But I'd never seen him get aggressive.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.50.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 3 folds, Hero (poster) checks, 3 folds, BB checks.

Flop: (3.50 SB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
BB bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

River: (4.75 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB bets, UTG+1 folds, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero ?

Final Pot: 12.75 BB

Aaron W.

07-31-2005, 01:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Edit: oops I submitted prior to adding my info.

Villain was loose and very passive and had called down a lot with crap. But I'd never seen him get aggressive.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.50.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 3 folds, Hero (poster) checks, 3 folds, BB checks.

Flop: (3.50 SB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
BB bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

River: (4.75 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB bets, UTG+1 folds, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero ?

Final Pot: 12.75 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

67 = 9 combos
A3, 63 = 28 combos
54, 42 = 12 combos

Cap it.

Edit x3: Missed 84 = 6 more combos -- still capping and I don't think very passive player bets 84 on the flop

J. Stew

07-31-2005, 01:35 AM

Comes to life with the eight, may have been looking for a check raise on the turn with trips or full, two pair on flop would probably want the three-bet but he's passive so not sure. Five Eight is possible and he's betting two pair in which case you should obv. raise. You're hand is well hidden with the board and how you played so he may get out of character with a two pair fives and eights after you checked the turn when the four paired. You lose to fives, twos, eights, fours, 54, 42 and 84 and beat some two pairs and trips . . . I call.

AngelicPenguin

07-31-2005, 01:38 AM

How about 84 or 88?

hemstock

07-31-2005, 01:41 AM

My initial thought.
Cap it. But since your friend is very passive, I'd say a call is fine. Looks to me he was going for the check-raise on the turn

Aaron W.

07-31-2005, 01:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
How about 84 or 88?

[/ QUOTE ]

88 is a possibility, too. I can't believe I missed the set combinations... I should just give up and go to bed.

But after rethinking it a few times, 84 doesn't bet the flop.

AngelicPenguin

07-31-2005, 01:45 AM

So you still think a cap is in order? That's what I did btw, just wasn't sure if I was spewing vs a paired board (admittedly an odd one.)

Doc7

07-31-2005, 01:47 AM

those are all the hands that will lose or split with hero. (FIRST REPLY...I was typing this and like 5 more replies came!)

He bet out and then just called a raise on the flop, checked when the board paired and then became aggressive again on the river. I'm might be subconsiously assuming the worst because the hand was posted (and hence I assume did not turn out well) but can't we see 88, 54, or 42 in the big blind often enough to take a full house into consideration?

54 or 42 being more likely because of no pre-flop raise, and he could have been trying to c/r the turn...

I'm not saying that this is a fold, with the nut straight I personally would pay off a boat here. However, as OP said, he never saw this guy get aggressive, so if it isn't a split pot [he would have bet on the turn if he had a lower straight, knowing he'd get at least one call from at least the raiser on the flop (Hero)] it looks like a boat. He could also think his trip 4s are good, but I think it's going to end up being either a split or a loss to 42 or 54.

Aaron W.

07-31-2005, 10:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
He bet out and then just called a raise on the flop, checked when the board paired and then became aggressive again on the river. I'm might be subconsiously assuming the worst because the hand was posted (and hence I assume did not turn out well) but can't we see 88, 54, or 42 in the big blind often enough to take a full house into consideration?

[/ QUOTE ]

Since he's in the big blind and saw a free flop, *EVERY* hand is possible. This means we cannot throw out anything because of preflop considerations.

What I was trying (and failing) to do was to list all of the possible hands that villain might play this way. If villain flopped a straight, it's entirely possible that he wouldn't 3-bet the flop and look to check-raise the turn (it's a FPS sort of thing). The same might be true for a flopped two pair. Both are strong hands that can be (mis-)played in this way. Without more detailed reads, I don't think you can really distinguish between these two situations. Also, the question of whether villain would bet-call instead of bet-3-bet flopped hands is another question that a read would answer (also whether he would even bet a made hand into three players in the first place). Lacking this extra information, we need to admit them as possibilities.

The 88 overpair another hand that might be played this way.

Flopped straights: A3, 63 = 28 hands
Flopped two pairs that filled: 42, 54 = 12 hands
Overpair that caught: 88 = 6 hands

I've decided to throw 76 (villain's cards) because passive villain may not bet his OESD. Again, this is a read-based thing.

Hero is ahead 28 times and villain is ahead 18 times. Since Hero is more likely ahead than behind, I think it's a cap.

BTW - It looks like Hero is investing two bets to win one here - I think that's a flawed way of looking at it. Hero is investing the first bet to call *NO MATTER WHAT*. So the real question is whether he wants to invest one more bet above that to win one more bet. This is why I think it would be bad to think that Hero needs 2:1 to raise this.