What cues should I be looking for to move up?

[adam61]

I've seen some other posts with someone similar questions but they didn't really answer my question. I played about 1500 SNGs over a year ago mostly $10+1 and $20+2 and did decent but never great. My mindset has always been better for limit but my heart has always wanted to be a good SNG and MTT player. So I've gotten back into SNGs at the $11 level and want to get to the point where I can reasonably match my output at $3/6 and $3/6 6-max (Probably with less variance too). By my very basic calculations in 45 mins I can do 4 tourneys. 45 mins at 3/6 I earn about 3-3.5BBs after rakeback. So I can make about $20 reliably in the time it takes to play 4 tournaments in limit. My goal is to get up to this figure pretty quickly in SNGs and then stagnate there for a good period to really try to master things more.

So I figure this can occur at the $33s pretty easily so that's my short term goal. A 15-18% ROI at the 33s should match my current take at limit. I'm trying to figure the best way to accomplish this. Bankrollwise I'm fully rolled for the 33s but skillwise I think I'm lacking.

My main issues are WAY too many 2nds, which has always plagued me, and a few too many 6-10ths cause I think I may go a little too far on hands, I'm not weak enough early. Just as a quick indicator (200 $11s, no statistical significance) I'm 10% ROI with 12/16/11. This was pretty typical of my first 1500 a year ago except a bit more ITM (mostly 2/3) and about 16% ROI.

So I'm just wanting to get a few tips mainly on what I should be working on before moving up, how quickly you can move up towards 33s and what to adjust for as I move up. I'm reading the board a lot in addition and trying to get some practice at the $11s. But like I said I don't latch onto Tournament theory quite as fast as Limit theory for some reason but I'm not afraid to work on it. Thanks!

[valenzuela]

look my experience so far.
the 11s are way too easy, no matter how much tilt or how much leaks u have u will beat them.
the 22s are easy, as long as u dont tilt u will beat them, it doesnt matter if u have leaks.
this is not a joke its actual serious comments, any poster disagree with me.

[bones]

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any poster disagree with me

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Yes.

[bones]

You're going to find it very difficult to beat any level with subpar ITM play. You need to figure out if this is just variance or a serious leak before you move up to a higher level. Whether the next level is much more difficult is irrelevant. This is something you have to make a conscious effort to improve, either by posting hands, using Eastbays tool to hone your instincts, or constantly reviewing HHs (preferrably all 3).

Moving up before you solidify your understanding of SNG basics and ITM play is a recipe for disaster and will most likely force you to move back down or go broke.

[valenzuela]

I think that if u use the " formula"..tight early , push/fold late u will win no matter what.

[nate_king1]

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I think that if u use the " formula"..tight early , push/fold late u will win no matter what.

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How I play. I assume that you could make $20 per set of SNGs.

$22 x 0.25 ROI $22 plus $2 in rackback.

[Isura]

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I'm 10% ROI with 12/16/11

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You know that 2-3 coinflips going other way and this is more like 16/12/11. Looking at your stats to find leaks is not very helpful in sngs (unlike in limit). I'd just keep reviewing your previous tourneys, rethinking and refining your thought process behind your play, and posting hands you still aren't sure about. The forum is essentially a passive learing tool, and not enough beginners think on their own about their own games.

[Isura]

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I think that if u use the " formula"..tight early , push/fold late u will win no matter what.

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How I play. I assume that you could make $20 per set of SNGs.

$22 x 0.25 ROI $22 plus $2 in rackback.

[/ QUOTE ]

And 22s only take about 45 minutes, so this hourly rate will be higher if you can play continously.

[adam61]

Yea ITM has always been tough. I'm near maniacal now sometimes just robbing people of first. But I seem to go into heads up short a lot and when I go in up on chips I seem to just give them away trying to push the other guy around. It may just be variance. I've gotten 8 first places in my last 16 ITMs (basically today). But over nearly 2000 tournaments I was something like 12/16/11 or something so it was for sure a leak back then. Not sure on those percentages just know it was nearly the same first and third with a solid chunk of seconds. I feel like I have leaks at all parts but no huge holes. I feel like a play the right amount of hands early but push them a bit too far and hand away too many chips on mediocre made hands or decent but unacceptable draws. Problem is I'm not really chasing, I'm just not quite sure what to do. On levels 4-6 with 4-6 players left I feel like I do decent, but I would say I go out a lot in desperation pushes with mediocre hands when I'm the real short stack, or on a steal attempt that gets called. Based on what I've seen here I doubt I'm stealing too much, this may be standard variance, but I know bubble play is probably everyone's hardest portion. And in the late game oddly enough I feel like I play my best, But I seem to take a lot of beats and not hand enough out I don't know it's hard to explain. I feel like I dominate the tables in the final 3, but my numbers don't reflect it so it's either variance or bad perception on my part. I basically won two tournaments today just by the other guy folding himself out of it. But I also lost when I was up 7400-600 and 7100-900 heads up today as well. I'm not sure how I give these away but I have trouble putting hurt opponents down. I hope it's just bad luck.

A lot of it is probably just adjusting, but in my 3/6 games every move I make I make with absolute confidence in myself. Not to say I don't have leaks, cause I do, but I'm never boggled or totally confused. I am a lot in SNGs. ICM is a pretty complicated concept to apply for me. Easy to understand more difficult to apply. I'm sure I'll get there, I just tend to be a very conservative poker player and resist moving up just cause I psych myself out of it.

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My main issues are WAY too many 2nds

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Hi,

I also used to play $3/6 limit but hated the variance but occasionally I would play some $11 STT's just for fun. After a bad run at $3/6 I decided to switch to test myself by playing and recording results for 100 $22 STTs. Not big enough for a sample size but big enough to get a feel for my game and if I feel I'm making less mistakes than my opponents. That went well so I'm working towards my first 1000 sngs at $33 and I'm loving it way more than the $3/6 grind.

Playing heads up about 60% of the time someone will have <10BB. In this case I play an allin or fold game based on game theory so figuring my opponents calling range vs blind size is important. HU the blinds are so high you can't really do anything terrible apart from folding to much or the worst, min-raise/folding. Generally think aggresion and don't wait too long for a hand.

For you I would say do what I did, play 100 $22 SNGs. Your sample size isn't large enough to indicate your winrate but a good poker player should be able to assess his performance more accurately than results over a small sample size. If you feel comfortable after this then I would say move up to $33 SNGs as the players seem marginally better but still beatable.

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feel like a play the right amount of hands early but push them a bit too far and hand away too many chips on mediocre made hands or decent but unacceptable draws.

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In this case, limited NL postflop skills, you need to really tighten up your preflop starting hands as your edge is really maximised stealing blinds in later levels. Preflop in SNGs is a fair bit different to $3/6 limit, its usually a fair bit tighter for now at least. Also postflop you must tighten up, it is usually incorrect to chase cards, unlike limit. These extra chips that you don't 'spray' could be better used to help get other people to fold compared to if you go into level 4+ as the short stack.

[bones]

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And in the late game oddly enough I feel like I play my best, But I seem to take a lot of beats and not hand enough out I don't know it's hard to explain. I feel like I dominate the tables in the final 3, but my numbers don't reflect it so it's either variance or bad perception on my part

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This doesn't have to be a mystery. Look at your HHs. Run the #s for everytime you get knocked out of a tourney. Figure out if it was the right play or not. Then look again. By doing this, you'll either gain the confidence necessary to move up (if you're making the right plays) or realize that you have some studying to do (if you aren't).

While 200 is too small to have a good statisical sample, there is lots of information to be found in those 200 sngs. Take few days and really put some time into finding out where you're at. The games will still be there when you're done, and you'll have a much greater understanding of whether you are ready to move up.