Irieguy's Greatest Hits (Volume II): Why do people call...

[SuitedSixes]

I've been thinking about this post (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1080351&page=&view=&sb=5& o=&fpart=all&vc=1) quite a bit lately. Mostly because of curtains' (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2996525&page=&view=&s b=5&o=&vc=1) and Irieguy's (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2996695&page=&view=&s b=5&o=&vc=1) response to an illogical, and strategically incorrect call.

So I present to you Irieguy's Greatest Hits (Volume II): Why do people call when then know they are beat??

[ QUOTE ]
The real answer can be found in Abraham Maslow's original draft of his Hierarchy of Needs. Unfortunately, his final draft was edited down to 5 needs (largely because the behaviorists at the time had proven that people shy away from shapes with an odd number of sides containing an even number of items; thus the decision to omit the second of 6 needs in the triangle to give his theory more mass appeal.)


Maslow's Original Hierarchy of Needs:


1. Physiologic Needs
2. THE NEED TO CALL
3. Safety Needs
4. Love Needs
5. Esteem Needs
6. Self-actualization


He explained (in a manner that was well ahead of his time), that after food and water, the most compelling human need is to call when somebody goes all-in. Interestingly, understanding this is the first step towards self-actualization.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

Enjoy. Discuss.

[Slim Pickens]

Where is self-preservation in all of this? Wouldn't the need to fold for self-preservation, essentially a Physiologic Need, override the NEED TO CALL?

[maddog2030]

[ QUOTE ]
Where is self-preservation in all of this? Wouldn't the need to fold for self-preservation, essentially a Physiologic Need, override the NEED TO CALL?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think if you put a gun to the head and told them to fold, they would fold.

[11t]

True, but suicide is fun.

[Slim Pickens]

This is what we're exploiting while pushing K4o on the button 4-handed.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
This is what we're exploiting while pushing K4o on the button 4-handed.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, what you're more likely exploiting is their inability to do the same thing when on the bubble.

Most players are still much too loose on the bubble...b/c they can't help but call. It is their passivity that allows us to make aggressive nonexploitable pushes and gain EV while our opponents are incapable of doing the same.

Yugoslav

[The Yugoslavian]

Here is a 'Golden Oldie' I will offer up...he posted this on February 7th 2002, /images/graemlins/grin.gif. It is the first complete version of the No Limit drill he has mentioned/alluded to a handful of times on the STT forum more recently.

[ QUOTE ]

THE NO-LIMIT DRILL:
Buy into a small buy-in NLHE tournament and play in the following manner: Do not look at your cards preflop. Observe everything at the table EXCEPT your hand and decide if you can win the blinds/pot with a raise. If you think you can, then raise. After the flop, again assess whether or not a bet or raise will win the pot and act accordingly. If you decide you can't win the pot by betting alone, then look at your cards before folding to make sure you don't accidentally throw away the nuts. This drill will help you improve your ability to read players and stay in tune with the flow and tempo of the table. You will start to notice minute details about your opponents' behavior and become much better at perceiving when you can steal a pot. Of course, don't let your opponents know what you are doing.

You will be surprised at your results... both with how you do in a "drill" tournament and more importantly, how you do in subsequent tournaments.

Until now I have not been able to put a finger on why the drill worked so well. I now realize that getting an opponent to fold is more significant an event than many people realize. Whether or not they are folding to your bluff or folding to your value bet is not nearly as important as the mere fact that they are folding. Sharpening your ability to detect opportunities to win uncontested pots is the most important skill you can learn in NLHE, I believe.

I encourage anyone interested to give it a try and post your results. I have a feeling this tool is more powerful than I first thought.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yugoslav

[raptor517]

the no limit drill is simply the BEST way to get better at NLH. for 5 straight sessions playing 1-2 NL at a local club, i was an overall winner, losing on 2 sessions but posting a good win on the other 3. this was the most useful technique to practice in my poker career. it made my live NL game infinitely better. it truly is amazing recollecting on a session where you never looked at yer cards unless you were about to fold. holla

[TheUsher]

[ QUOTE ]
Here is a 'Golden Oldie' I will offer up...he posted this on February 7th 2002, /images/graemlins/grin.gif. It is the first complete version of the No Limit drill he has mentioned/alluded to a handful of times on the STT forum more recently.

[ QUOTE ]

THE NO-LIMIT DRILL:
Buy into a small buy-in NLHE tournament and play in the following manner: Do not look at your cards preflop. Observe everything at the table EXCEPT your hand and decide if you can win the blinds/pot with a raise. If you think you can, then raise. After the flop, again assess whether or not a bet or raise will win the pot and act accordingly. If you decide you can't win the pot by betting alone, then look at your cards before folding to make sure you don't accidentally throw away the nuts. This drill will help you improve your ability to read players and stay in tune with the flow and tempo of the table. You will start to notice minute details about your opponents' behavior and become much better at perceiving when you can steal a pot. Of course, don't let your opponents know what you are doing.

You will be surprised at your results... both with how you do in a "drill" tournament and more importantly, how you do in subsequent tournaments.

Until now I have not been able to put a finger on why the drill worked so well. I now realize that getting an opponent to fold is more significant an event than many people realize. Whether or not they are folding to your bluff or folding to your value bet is not nearly as important as the mere fact that they are folding. Sharpening your ability to detect opportunities to win uncontested pots is the most important skill you can learn in NLHE, I believe.

I encourage anyone interested to give it a try and post your results. I have a feeling this tool is more powerful than I first thought.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

I was doing this in a Excalibur N/L cash game while waiting for raptor to head over to the Rio a couple weeks back at the WSOP. It's fun as hell. /images/graemlins/grin.gif This could easily become my preferred way to play cash games live whenever you're bored/drunk. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Oh.. and make sure to look back at your cards everytime you win a pot without knowing what you had as it seems to piss off your opponents at times and creates doubt in their mind when you peek and smile before throwing them away. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[The Yugoslavian]

Sorry, this is another post which should be brought up...perhaps we can play this at the HU STT tournament!

[ QUOTE ]

I've played a million different poker games that are referred to as "liar's poker", but the version my friends and I play is truly a great game. For those interested, read the next paragraph, otherwise skip to my question:

The game can be played 3-handed or more. We use a 54 card deck with two jokers that can be used for Aces, straights, and flushes. 5 cards are dealt from the top of the deck to the player to your left and the deal rotates. The first player looks at the cards and calls any 5 card poker hand. The next player may then either take the hand and draw up to five cards, or pass. If passed, the next player in the rotation has the same option. The round ends when everybody passes. If the player left holding the cards has AT LEAST the hand he has called, he wins one unit from each of the other players. If he has worse than the called hand, he loses one unit to each of the other players. The game is surprisingly intricate and complicated. Possible plays include dumping good cards with your draw to induce an opponent to take a hand with nothing, and "undercalling" a big hand (calling Jacks and sevens with a King, when really holding trip Aces and two little cards.)

Here's my question: what is the best strategy for calling the first hand off the deck? Since the odds of having a pair or better are higher than 50% with the jokers in play, most will call a pair regardless of what they hold (except a nut hand). Similarly, most opponents will take the hand with any call less than Aces because of the chances of drawing a big hand while still being able to pass the hand. A very common sequence is for the first player to call a medium pair with nothing. The next player will take the hand, draw 5 cards and call Aces with little kickers. Everyone will then pass around and the second player gets stuck holding a loser. Any thoughts on the best opening strategy?

PS It may sound like a goofy game, but it's very interesting, and you can really punnish an inexperienced player and make some serious $$$ if you have any wealthy friends who like action.


[/ QUOTE ]

This was posted by Irie on 11/26/01 /images/graemlins/shocked.gif. Who knew he even could type back then, /images/graemlins/crazy.gif.

Yugoslav

[Slim Pickens]

So the loose-passive player is saying "I need to play for self-actualization, but I also need to survive." If people simply called too much on the bubble, it wouldn't be +$EV to push a lot of crap. They call too much against a typical oppopnent, but not against a 2+2're pushing garbage.

I think we see the Physiologic usually rule behavior, and the self-actualization show up every once in a while when it's been repressed for too long. It's a balance between pushing aces when our opponents feel the need for self-actualization, and pushing crap when they feel the need for survival.

[valenzuela]

I dont get it /images/graemlins/frown.gif, I just say seven hi and win every time.

[bearly]

11t, if you know suicide to be fun, you must live a life of self-denial. perhaps, engaging in a bit of this fun would make you blossom. h

[raptor517]

very similar to dollars poker. fun fun fun on road trips. holla

[networkman]

[ QUOTE ]


I think if you put a gun to the head and told them to fold, they would fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not on party they won't /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
So the loose-passive player is saying "I need to play for self-actualization, but I also need to survive." If people simply called too much on the bubble, it wouldn't be +$EV to push a lot of crap. They call too much against a typical oppopnent, but not against a 2+2're pushing garbage.

I think we see the Physiologic usually rule behavior, and the self-actualization show up every once in a while when it's been repressed for too long. It's a balance between pushing aces when our opponents feel the need for self-actualization, and pushing crap when they feel the need for survival.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well these players aren't saying anything to themselves...they wouldn't be able to vocalize whatever strategy they're employing anyway (just read convluded posts by noobs....they sometimes barely seem to resemble a cohesive plan).

And yes....players can call too much on the bubble *and* it still be +EV to make some seemingly crazy pushes. The bubble is weird like that. But weaker players certainly do make -EV calls a ton when there is a somewhat or very short stack at the table, period. The trick to being very aggressive is that good aggressive players do it when it's nonexploitable (or to exploit someone has to play in an extremely -EV manner for him/herself).

Of course, even the loosest players tighten up on the bubble...but if you think they stop making calls that are very -EV then I think you're mistaken..

Yugoslav

[psyduck]

Raptor you were doing this at a ring NL game? That's gotta be harder than doing it in an SNG..

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
Raptor you were doing this at a ring NL game? That's gotta be harder than doing it in an SNG..

[/ QUOTE ]

yea live NL ring though is diff than online.. can talk sh*t to people and get reactions and such. u notice SOOOO many things if you arent looking at yer cards in a live game. holla

[Mr_J]

I've called before because I was curious. Just wanted to see what sort of hands would bet that way, or to see how good my read was. It has future value to me and doesn't really cost much. I alot of this sort of thing at low limit HU. I guess this doesn't really count then.