$25 PP PLO, AAxx in BB, raised multiway pot

[chumsferd]

$25 PL Omaha
Seat 2 is the button, Total number of players : 10

Seat 1: Seat 1 ( $11.75 ) <- 53/0 after 15 hands
Seat 2: Seat 2 ( $30.80 ) <- 71/2 after 42 hands
Seat 3: Seat 3 ( $60.90 ) <- 11/2 after 145 hands
Seat 4: Hero ( $25 )
Seat 5: Seat 5 ( $12.60 ) <- 63/9 after 22 hands
Seat 6: Seat 6 ( $14.40 ) <- 74/2 after 47 hands
Seat 7: Seat 7 ( $13.60 ) <- 55/0 after 17 hands
Seat 8: Seat 8 ( $6.70 ) <- 75/12 after 8 hands
Seat 9: Seat 9 ( $26.25 ) <- 40/0 after 12 hands
Seat 10: Seat 10 ( $7.65 ) <- 21/18 after 81 hands


Seat 3 posts small blind $0.10.
Hero posts big blind $0.25.
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to hero A/images/graemlins/heart.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif
Seat 6 calls $0.25, 1 fold, Seat 7 calls $0.25, Seat 8 raises $1.35, Seat 9 calls $1.35, Seat 10 calls $1.35, 3 folds, Hero raises $7.10...

Okay, I wouldn't typically re-raise here, I've learned that much. However, 4 of the 5 remaining active players have shortish stacks. My raise will put 2 of them all in, and 2 of them close to all in. There is only one player (Seat 9) that can put me to a difficult post flop decision, and I'm hoping they will get folded out. So, question 1, do I want to be re-raising here?


...Seat 6 folds, Seat 7 folds, Seat 8 is all-In, Seat 9 calls $6, Seat 10 folds.

Okay, the one guy I wanted out, called. Should I just push any flop? if not, why not? and what kind of flops can I push on? I have just short of a pot size bet left in my stack.

[jlcoleman71]

I'd reraise here, it might develope into a multi-way all-in fest considering the short stacks but it's not as if you have dry aces here.
On the flop as you say it's only not relatively automatic if your up against seat 9; there will be probably be a few short-stack all-ins complicating issues so you may not push as you would if it was heads-up with seat 9, although you would want to stack off on the 'safe' looking flops.

[Rosie5]

i don't think any hand is worth reraising with preflop when you can be profitable nut peddling

I guess if you want to exploit every 60% edge you have then that's fine but there's way better spots to get your money in at 25$ PLO. enjoy the crazy variance with the AAxx reraise strategy.

Plus, your hand is well defined, if he nails anything better than a pair of aces he's getting the rest of his stack in. Not to mention that spiking the ace now is reverse implied odds. He's not comin to town with less than top pair and he can probably put you on AA no matter how bad he is

I would call here. Definitely not fold

Think about what you're doing, you're like "omg I have to get all my money in while I'm like a 55% favorite against these terrible players where I could easily find a much better spot omg!!"

reraising with AAxx preflop is probably the worst play I could think of at 25$ PLO. I don't think it's -EV. Of course putting chips in when you have the best hand is +EV, I just think there's better spots

I know I'll get a ton of disagrees on this. Lyle Berman and I will just huddle into a corner while the rest of 2+2 stones us to death /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[beset7]

<he who is without sin casting the first stone> /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
i don't think any hand is worth reraising with preflop when you can be profitable nut peddling

[/ QUOTE ]
There is more to life than nut peddling. It is more profitable to do more than nut peddle, too. If you get used to nut peddling, all of your instincts will be wrong for short-handed or tournament play, or heads-up pots in cash games.

[ QUOTE ]

I guess if you want to exploit every 60% edge you have then that's fine but there's way better spots to get your money in at 25$ PLO. enjoy the crazy variance with the AAxx reraise strategy.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why do you care about the variance at a $25 table? If your bankroll is small enough that you are worrying about the variance, maybe the nut peddling isn't working out very well. If you don't think the reraise is +EV, fine, but that you will have better opportunities later is a poor argument to pass up this one.

[ QUOTE ]

Think about what you're doing, you're like "omg I have to get all my money in while I'm like a 55% favorite against these terrible players where I could easily find a much better spot omg!!"

[/ QUOTE ]
That statement makes no sense, and lowers the level of this discussion.

It's funny that you mention 55%. The last time I reraised in a situation like this, TwoDimes said I would win 55%. 3-handed. That's not a small edge, it's huge. Each dollar I put in would return $1.66, and I got my whole stack in, not just $1.25. (I won the whole pot, too, almost twice what I expected. Variance works both ways.)

The AAJ7ss can expect to be a significant favorite against the short stacks, and may gain by reraising whether they call or fold. It might provide too much information to the one deep stack, but that player might fold, and he doesn't have a great chance to outflop AA anyway.

A possible alternative to reraising the pot is to make a smaller reraise in the hopes that one of the short stacks will push so that you can put even more in. I would just reraise the pot.

[Rosie5]

[ QUOTE ]

There is more to life than nut peddling. It is more profitable to do more than nut peddle, too. If you get used to nut peddling, all of your instincts will be wrong for short-handed or tournament play, or heads-up pots in cash games.


[/ QUOTE ]

technically you ARE nut peddling with pushing preflop with AAxx.

Also, nothing but nut peddling is even viable at these stakes so that is a non issue /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't think the reraise is +EV, fine, but that you will have better opportunities later is a poor argument to pass up this one.


[/ QUOTE ]

I said it WAS +ev. Obviously putting money in with the best hand is good /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

But it's a tough hand to play after the flop and will leave you broke more often than you think

Maybe my AAxx play is a hole in my game /images/graemlins/confused.gif

It seems like everytime I say something about how I play PLO I unleash the 2+2 hordes. I think it was -ev to try giving insight on this forum when all I do is nut peddle. ugghhh I really have no semblence of anything that could be considered a skill /images/graemlins/blush.gif

back to the WPT forum where I can make fun of Norman chad and Vince Van Patten's wig without getting pounced on

[Spellmen]

It's because ALL you advocate is nut peddling. Yes, you can nut peddle and beat the low limits with little risk, everyone knows this, but you are not maximizing the amount you can make by playing scared

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]

technically you ARE nut peddling with pushing preflop with AAxx.

[/ QUOTE ]
Here, it is a reraise, not a push, and you aren't nearly as much of a favorite as you can be postflop.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, nothing but nut peddling is even viable at these stakes so that is a non issue /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
This is really wrong. These games are so soft that there are many viable winning styles, even ones as bad as nut peddling. In other games, you can't just nut peddle.

Here is a LAG strategy I see used successfully: Limp with any 4, particularly in late position, then bet 2/3 the pot and steal it from the nut peddlers who are unwilling to play poker. If a nut peddler plays back at you, fold.

I am shocked at how well that works. Some times the same person wins 9 pots in an orbit using this strategy. The unobservant nut peddlers just keep folding and folding, waiting for the nuts, imagining someone has top set, a higher wrap, and a higher flush draw all at once. Perhaps they do not realize that the LAG has no intention of paying them off when they finally have a big hand.

Why don't the nut peddlers get blinded down? There are enough fish at PLO 25, and PLO 100, who will pay them off. That may make up for the amount they lose by getting outplayed by the LAGs.

[Rosie5]

[ QUOTE ]
It's because ALL you advocate is nut peddling. Yes, you can nut peddle and beat the low limits with little risk, everyone knows this, but you are not maximizing the amount you can make by playing scared

[/ QUOTE ]

yes thank you as if I didn't [censored] on myself enough already

on a side note OMG look at Sexton's rug bwahahahaha

[chumsferd]

I'm very new to PLO, but I'm struggling to see much merit in your advice.

[ QUOTE ]
I guess if you want to exploit every 60% edge you have then that's fine but there's way better spots to get your money in at 25$ PLO. enjoy the crazy variance with the AAxx reraise strategy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I should have said when I made the OP, I don't care about variance, only EV. I'm just playing this game as a learning experience and I'm massively over-bankrolled for it. If you think nut-peddling is the ONLY viable strategy at this level (as you say in another post) then what limit would you suggest I start at to learn the game? I'm probably bankrolled up to the $200 games, but I don't want to be just donating cash whilst I'm learning.

Secondly, I was trying to raise to commit as many of the short stacks as possible. What kind of edge are you talking about that is 60%? If my plan works, my pot equity edge will be much lower than 60%, but this will be hugely compensated for by a) the odds I'm getting on their calls and b) not having to play a vulnerable hand OOP postflop.

[ QUOTE ]
Plus, your hand is well defined, if he nails anything better than a pair of aces he's getting the rest of his stack in. Not to mention that spiking the ace now is reverse implied odds. He's not comin to town with less than top pair and he can probably put you on AA no matter how bad he is... ...I would call here. Definitely not fold

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, so, you think I should call the initial raise, and fold if I don't spike and ace? I don't see how reverse implied odds apply, when I spike an ace and everyone is so short stacked. Isn't that a higher variance strategy than just getting the money in preflop?

[ QUOTE ]
Think about what you're doing, you're like "omg I have to get all my money in while I'm like a 55% favorite against these terrible players where I could easily reload if I lose and ALSO take a better spot omg!!"

[/ QUOTE ]

Fixed this bit of your post for you.

[chumsferd]

[ QUOTE ]
The AAJ7ss can expect to be a significant favorite against the short stacks, and may gain by reraising whether they call or fold. It might provide too much information to the one deep stack, but that player might fold, and he doesn't have a great chance to outflop AA anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, this is exactly what I was getting at in my original post. There are 4 short stacks in the hand, and one deep stack. I don't have many hands on the deep stack, but at 40% vpip after 12 hands it seems they are probably selective about what hands they play. I'm aware that raising with AAxx OOP is generally not good in PLO, when the stacks are deep. However, I wondered if, in this case, it was worth taking the risk of the deep stack calling, since I otherwise have a good chance of getting all in with a good pot-equity edge against all the small stacks. It seems you would advocate this... I've been thinking about the hand and I think it probably was the right move.

The second question though, I'm still unsure about. Once the deep stack also calls, what can I do postflop? am I committed to pushing any flop? I don't have a clear idea of what their hand distribution is, and the pot is so large I can't really make a bet on the flop that won't commit me.

[TheRempel]

The pot-reraise was not a bad move as there's only one player at the table that is going to do any damage to you. If he doesn't call, you're going to be pushing six or seven dollars in a $50 pot on the flop. Given that he has called, you should be pushing most flops but you will have a difficult decision to make.

A better move might've been to min-raise as it's unlikely the original raiser would just call with $4 behind. If he pushes you are going to be able to reraise and stack off preflop against everybody.

[chumsferd]

[ QUOTE ]
A better move might've been to min-raise as it's unlikely the original raiser would just call with $4 behind. If he pushes you are going to be able to reraise and stack off preflop against everybody.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re-raising less than pot hadn't really occured to me... but that sounds like a good plan. Great advice, thank you.