when is calling an all-in w/ 53o correct? (50+5)

[ir0nphist]

NL Texas Hold'em $50 Buy-in + $5 Entry Fee
Level:5 Blinds(75/150)

Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 5

<font color="red"> Seat 4: SB ( $500 )
Seat 5: BB (Hero) ( $1365 )</font>
Seat 2: Button ( $2390 )
Seat 6: MP ( $2915 )
Seat 8: UTG ( $2830 )
Trny:14376369 Level:5
Blinds(75/150)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ]
3 folds, SB is all-In.

Hero calls [350].

So my thinking here was that I was getting almost 2:1 on the call (it was actually 1.86:1). Even against AKo, 53o is only a 1.76:1 dog. When a call is close like this and I have an opportunity to knock a player out I like to take it. Plus, when I have opportunities like this I like to call as it sometimes will discourage others at the table from stealing against me in future hands.

If you disagree with this call, then how small does SB's push have to be to call here?

[gildwulf]

I very much disagree with this call. Not only are you going to be a huge underdog to pretty much any two cards, but you're calling off a quarter of your stack to make this call. Calling and losing will make you a huge underdog ITM, and doubling him up will make you about even-stacked and you will have a very difficult time getting in the money. Very bad call.

[KramerTM]

I think SB is pushing any 2 here, right? So I guess that means you would have to call this. Before making calls like these, I typically like to look at what the siutation would be if I folded the hand.

Situation: You have 1115 in chips, SB has 725. SB may push from the button on the next hand, taking your push from the SB away. This could be good or bad. If he gets called and loses, it's good. If he steals the blinds, it's bad (you guys would be about even).

My Opinion: I might fold this if this blind level just started. If ithe blinds are going up soon, though, I think your call is correct.

[YourFoxyGrandma]

First of all, you have to take into account that you're not always as good as a 1.76:1 dog.

The real problem with calling here is that you're risking 25% of your stack at a point in the game where every little bit helps. Calling when the odds are in your favor is +EV, but not when the chips you're risking represent such a large percentage of your stack.

[gildwulf]

You lose all fold equity if you call and lose this and you will be crippled vs. the big stacks. Sometimes you just have to throw pot odds out the window in tournaments and this is a spot where you should.

[ir0nphist]

I disagree about losing my FE. . . I thought I would still have a sufficient amount. obviously not as much as I would like. . . but still some.

So again I will ask the question. . . if you disagree with this call, then how small does the SB's push have to be here for you to make the call?

[KramerTM]

[ QUOTE ]
So again I will ask the question. . . if you disagree with this call, then how small does the SB's push have to be here for you to make the call?

[/ QUOTE ]

It varies based on your read. If you're sure he's pushing any two, I'd probably call about 400 or less. If he's been super-tight, then I'd call about 300 or less.

[Jbrochu]

Best case, if you can absolutely put him on any two you're getting the correct odds by a slim margin. Since he's leaving the blinds, he can see three more hands for free. For this reason, I would give him credit for something better than any two, and I don't believe you're getting the correct odds.

If you're stack was much larger, you could possibly justify a call here to take a chance to eliminate him. I probably wouldn't, and certainly not with your stack.



[ QUOTE ]
If you disagree with this call, then how small does SB's push have to be to call here?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would call if the SB raised all-in to between 350 and 400 and nobody else had limped in earlier (and had a chance to act behind me).

[spentrent]

Looks like a (marginally) +CEV play but you're not sacrificing future fold equity since your stack can take the hit. I worry that you'd lose this most of the time and you'd make yourself the short stack with a level increase just around the corner.

I would wonder if you might have a better edge in the next two hands. Plus your edge from the pot isn't THAT big right now against a random hand.

If the table is very aggressive at this point -- ie, the SB doesn't often get a chance to open -- then I'd be more inclined to call here since I need any edge I can get on such a table. If the table were tighter, I think I'd rather fold now since I'm more confident I can steal the blinds later.

I have a hunch that the ICM won't heavily favor a call or a fold.

[YourFoxyGrandma]

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree about losing my FE. . . I thought I would still have a sufficient amount. obviously not as much as I would like. . .

[/ QUOTE ]
You make a good point here.

[ QUOTE ]
how small does the SB's push have to be here for you to make the call?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd probably call this getting 2:1 or better for 10% or less of my stack.

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
I think SB is pushing any 2 here, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutley not. Most players don't understand that pushing any two here is correct. I say most of the time you're up against top 50% hands here. I believe that the call here is very bad. Your equity against what his range figures to be is rather poor. I haven't crunched the numbers, but I think it's negative chip EV. If we want to argue that it's chip EV neutral (it's not better than this), than it is still -$EV. Firstly, you are investing almost 1/3 of your stack to make the call, and by doing so lose a decent amount of FE (I don't really understand an argument against that), and leave yourself relatively short stacked (forcing you to make plays that have less EV than the plays you could otherwise make). Eliminating a player does not seem to be a huge concern for you right now, at least not enough of one to offset the cons of calling. The times you win with this hand also does not put you into great chip position, at least not good enough to take this risk. There are better spots to put money in with your stack. I would call a raise of t150 or less although I'd have to do some better estimation for a better figure.

[ir0nphist]

So then the consensus is, fold.
Even if the Villain pushes AKo face-up and I know I have odds to call, I should fold, mainly because of the hit I take to my future FE.
No one likes the added value of being seen as a loose caller?

thx for the feedback guys

[gildwulf]

The value of being shown as a loose caller is pretty limited when you have low fold equity. Also, this will probably be read as you are a loose player in general and your pushes will get less respect when you need the money.

[ir0nphist]

I actually just went back &amp; checked the remainder of that sng. I only had my BB raised once out of 6 times after that call w/ 53o (I stopped counting once we got HU). The other 5 times it was folded around. So maybe there was some value to being seen as a loose caller? I know that personally, I hate to have a loose caller to my left as it really cuts down what I'm willing to push with.

FWIW, once I called w/ 53o villain showed J8o, board was no help &amp; MHING. But I was then able to steal the very next hand once it was folded to me w/ A8o.