Two Hands with KK [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

shermn27

07-30-2005, 03:21 AM

Third hand at a table with no Poker Tracker reads on opponents. Did I play these too softly, or does this seem like the right play?

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG raises, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, 6 folds, UTG caps, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.25 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

River: (11.25 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero calls, UTG folds.

Final Pot: 13.25 BB

Results in white below: 
UTG+1 has 9s Tc (two pair, aces and tens).
Hero has Kc Kh (full house, kings full of aces).
Outcome: Hero wins 13.25 BB. 

Then, two hands later at the exact same table. I have Kings again! Do you value bet on the river even after the checkraise on 4th street?

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 3 folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (11.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (5.75 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, UTG 3-bets, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

River: (14.75 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
UTG checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 17.75 BB

Results in white below: 
UTG has Ac 5c (straight, five high).
MP2 has 2d 4d (two pair, fours and twos).
Hero has Kd Kc (one pair, kings).
Outcome: UTG wins 17.75 BB.

macdaddy991

07-30-2005, 03:29 AM

Hand one. Bro you have a monster. Raise till your pointer finger hurts. If he shows you aces full then so be it.

Hand 2. Bet the flop. Why did you check the flop then go apesh*t on the turn? The line makes no sense. Raising the turn is fine, but without a solid read, you shouldn't cap.
On the river, why bet? What will someone check/3 bet you with? Take the easy showdown.

HentaiGaijin

07-30-2005, 03:32 AM

Hand 1: If UTG is tight, I might raise the boat on the flop, because he probably has a big hand. Otherwise, I'd definitely raise the turn. At this point I'm certain UTG has hit a good hand and I want to build a mondo pot. Check that. I agree with macdaddy. You should be raising this on the flop no matter your read on UTG.

Hand 2: Bet the flop! You're giving your opponents infinite odds to draw to a club flush if you check and it checks through. If you check/raise you give bad flush draw callers odds to draw out on you on the remaining streets.

benneh

07-30-2005, 03:41 AM

these hands have to be a joke.

cupfinal

07-30-2005, 04:33 AM

For the first hand, you have to raise at some point after the flop to define your hand. If he reraises, you can reevaluate and call it down. You do have a huge hand, but based on preflop position he could easily have AK or AQ. Don't automatically be afraid to show aggression here, but if you meet resistance, there's no shame in slowing down.

For the second hand, I agree with what's already being said, there are too many players and the flop is too coordinated to check the flop, someone out of 5 players is bound to catch a piece of it, at least you can make people pay to draw out on you and knock out at least a couple of players.

shermn27

07-30-2005, 05:40 AM

Thanks for the replies. When the second hand came out I thought it was one of those situations where few (if any)people would leave on the flop for a single bet and that I should wait until the turn to bet. I notice that most don't think it is one of those situations. SSH has hands like this where it suggests it might be better to wait for th turn to make your opponents make a bigger mistake on the turn to make up for letting some value go on the flop.

I would appreciate it someone could explain why this a really bad strategy so I don't do it again. Thanks.

shermn27

07-30-2005, 05:44 AM

While I do appreciate the fact that you think these hands are played poorly, I would like to point out that I posted these hands b/c I thought I played them poorly. For me, posting hands is about learning from your mistakes. If I posted hands where I thought I played fantastic all the time, what would I learn? With that in mind, I would much rather you tell me these hands are a joke and then follow that with some sort of explanation. Telling me I played terrible doesn't improve my play later on. Telling me I played terrible, why I played terrible, and what someone who does not play terrible would have done would be much more helpful. Thanks.

macdaddy991

07-30-2005, 05:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
SSH has hands like this where it suggests it might be better to wait for th turn to make your opponents make a bigger mistake on the turn to make up for letting some value go on the flop.

I would appreciate it someone could explain why this a really bad strategy so I don't do it again. Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are misapplying this concept.

KK is much closer to the AA example then to the TT example.

The TT example assumes that you have the best hand, but are more likely to be drawn out on. The book suggests that you wait for a safe turn to force your opponents into a bigger mistake.

You have KK, you have too much equity to not bet this flop. The bet is for value. If you get drawn out on then so be it, but in the long run, the missed bet on the flop is very negative EV for you.

The example in the book refers to when there is a bet and a raise behind you. In your example, you were checked to. You must bet here.

Eeegah

07-30-2005, 05:49 AM

Hand 1: Dude, you gotta find a raise here. Raise this flop and probably cap it if he 3-bets it, and only then start thinking about going into call down mode if he leads the turn.

Yes he may have an Ace, but we know where 2 aces and 3 kings are, so QQ, JJ and TT are statistically more likely.

On the river...I smell a bluff by UTG+1, or a straight; I think I'd raise this (he certainly doesn't have the royal /images/graemlins/wink.gif )

I really dunno what to say about hand 2; those betting patterns are just weird so I can't figure out a range to put your opponents on.

Edit: ah okay, UTG's hand makes sense now. Buddy list "it's sooted!" MP2 there.

shermn27

07-30-2005, 05:50 AM

Wow. You are exactly right. I completely misapplied it. I didn't even have to go back and look in SSH to remember the exact example now. Thanks.

cupfinal

07-30-2005, 06:20 AM

btw...I would like to point out that checking the flop wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea if there were a couple less people.

POKhER

07-30-2005, 08:15 AM

Hand 1.

You played this so badly, YOU FLOPPED A FULL HOUSE do you realise this? Do you honestly think UTG has AA? If he does pay him!

Infact you may even be able to raise the flop/cap it, The turn/Cap it, The river/Cap it. UTG Looks to be aggressive.

---------------------

Hand 2
BEt flop, UTG woke up so he seems to have hit something. he goes to sleep on river? Scared of flush? I'd probably note has down on this hand as scared/Fish.

POKhER.

shermn27

07-30-2005, 02:12 PM

Actually, I didn't think UTG had AA, I thought he had AK with the PF cap. But as others have pointed out, he could have easily had QQ or JJ or some other junk hand. With no reads at the table yet, I felt strongly that he probably had at least an A and most likely AK.

In any case, your still right. I had a similar hand later after posting these two on here and played it much more aggressively and took down a big pot. Thanks all.

Sightless

07-30-2005, 03:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
With no reads at the table yet, I felt strongly that he probably had at least an A and most likely AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

With no reads, you simply cant put someone on AK or AA got to raise

xGoreDudex

07-30-2005, 07:04 PM

uhm, IMO you missed out some BB in hand #1. Should have re-raised turn and lead on the river, if your re-raised I'd cap this all day..

Buckmulligan

07-30-2005, 07:10 PM

In hand one, call the flop, raise the turn, and call down if 3 bet. I wouldn't raise that flop.

SoftcoreRevolt

07-30-2005, 07:21 PM

This has to be a joke. Bet the flop in both hands, and cap the flop in both hands. in Hand 1 you could stop raising after maybe a turn cap.

What in gods name were you thinking...

Guthrie

07-30-2005, 07:37 PM

Hand 1: I don't mind slowplaying small boats, but this one demands to be raised, raised, raised. All fish play all aces all the time, so it's quite possible that one or more of them hit their ace and are "slowplaying" it, waiting to pair their rag kicker and raise the river. Keep raising and hope to drive out one that is actually thinking, or at least make them put in all their money so you can win the side pot.

Hand 2: Fish love to play face cards with rag kickers, so when three small cards come on the flop, and especially with five players, somebody's on a straight draw, and if anybody has even one club, they're staying too. So raise early and often, hoping to push out some of these donks before they suck out on you.