Open Pushing: The Debate

This pretains ONLY to the $11's. Not a poll cause its a debate! I will open push with any premium hand, against nothing or just limpers. blind levels 25/50 and above(edited).

I like open pushing. It has many advantages!
-People will call you with hands as bad as JTs!(seriously)
-It many times just picks up the pot uncontested.
-You protect your stack
-Avoid tricky postflop play!!!!!!

What are your thoughts. Remember only $11's!

[Jman28]

[ QUOTE ]

-Avoid tricky postflop play!!!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

At the 11s, you should have an advantage when it comes to postflop play.

If it's tricky for everyone, it doesn't mean that everyone loses EV.

[lastchance]

Umm... Yeah, except postflop play isn't tricky at all with AA-QQ/AK.

Picking up t15 uncontested isn't that great, and getting a maniacal image early is lousy.

Plus, I like stacking TP off.

[A_Junglen]

This isn't specific enough...Moving in with A-A UTG in level one is a stupid. I've moved in over several limpers in 25/50 with K-K to protect my hand, pick up the decent sized pot, and to hide the strength of my hand...but just saying "open pushing" isn't specific enough. That being said...in general I disagree.

[citanul]

Most of your argument seems to center around not losing after you get outflopped or whatnot. This is bad logic. Your premium hands are likely to still be good after your opponent flops *something* and he is more likely to give you all his money after he flops 2nd pair (even though he might be fairly likely to give you all his money with nothing) than before the flop.

While open pushing is +ev, it is not AS +ev as other options, like raising, letting people see a flop (For a price) and then stacking them post flop.

"Protect your stack" can only be taken so far before it's dumb.

YOu didn't include anything silly like your stack or the blinds for this discussion, so I mostly assumed they were low (someplace where you aren't in a 10bb situation), like level 1.

sorry i meant this to be during and above the 25/50 blind level. completley forgot to mention it in my excitment! Editing post

[Damian UK]

from my recent experience of pushing AA & KK at levels 1/2 u will be called by any Ax, any 2 face cards and sometimes K(Q-8) suited - I have also seen middles suited connectors call (78 89 910) as well - -I guess coz they read that these are the best hands to crack AA with.....

I ALWAYS push with AA KK at any time - coz if us raise 4XBB u still end up with 4/5 callers and one of them has flopped a freaky str/flush draw/pr and will call the your all in flop push - so I take the line of not allowing them to see (in their minds) a cheap flop - BTW I play on sites where u get 1500 chips, so a raise to 120 (4xBB) is 'nothing' and muppets will call this with Q4 suited to hit their flush - so just push and let them make the mistake. (I started raising 8X BB and you still get 3 callers!)

Just my thoughts

Damian

[vabogee]

during level 3, when the blind is only 50 chips and you have AA, DON'T "OPEN PUSH"!! end of debate. you're going to get this once a tournament (if that). why do you only want to win 75 chips? maybe i'm crazy, but i'm making a nice healthy raise before the flop (like 200 at level 3). is that so wrong?

[SammyKid11]

[ QUOTE ]
This pretains ONLY to the $11's. Not a poll cause its a debate! I will open push with any premium hand, against nothing or just limpers. blind levels 25/50 and above(edited).

I like open pushing. It has many advantages!
-People will call you with hands as bad as JTs!(seriously)
-It many times just picks up the pot uncontested.
-You protect your stack
-Avoid tricky postflop play!!!!!!

What are your thoughts. Remember only $11's!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah man...this is bad, even at the 11's (maybe especially at the 11's). If you don't have a significant postflop advantage on your opponents in the 11's, what are you doing wrong postflop?

Auto-pushing (even at level 3) is a bad idea. There are times when you need to play it normally with your KK, hope you're called by QJ, Q on the flop - in goes the money, etc. Every now and then you're outflopped and you lose your stack...so be it. But much MORE often you'll pick up more chips by just raising your premium hands and playing poker with them.

Push/fold is a great strategy to start employing with a range of hands once you're under 10xBB or when your live opponents are under 10xBB. Other than those times, why not just play the hand in the way that is most +EV?

[ChipLeader]

First off, while AA, KK, QQ, and AK are all considered "premium", they should not necessarily all be played the same.

AK plays much better all in preflop since it will often be folded against a worse ace postflop when it misses, and also it often hits the turn or river which you never get to see. This doesnt mean push everytime you get AK or that AK is too hard to be profitably played postflop, just that there are many advantages to being all in preflop.

Aces are also much better than kings and few people realize this. With KK an overcard can flop and now youre in a tough spot, how tough depends on your skill and experience. QQ is much worse than KK and AA for the same reason. Part of becoming a good poker player is learning to play each hand by situation, not by a system.

Ill close with the advice i gave my inexperienced friend when he asked why i played a 68s from CO after telling him to fold 79s in a virtually identical situation:
"Avoid seeing flops with hands you are not comfortable playing."
This means if a hand is worth playing (in this case, premium hands) but you are -EV because you play it incorrectly, push it preflop while it is still +EV and try to improve. If a hand is getting good odds but is not worth a push and you dont feel you can play it well, fold it.

If youre pushing premium hands everytime you get them, i suggest working on your game and until you get a feel for the hands play them in whatever fashion is most profitable or least expensive for you. You are losing signifcant EV for now, but at least it is +EV...

[MeanGreenTT]

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Aces are also much better than kings and few people realize this.

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[AlphaWice]

the biggest thing I see is the lack of understanding of "pot committed" at the 11s. You can take advantage of this: most people will not call an all in, but will call a pot-committing raise almost all in (the raise is still big enough that it prices them out)

Then, push any flop. He either folds when he misses, gaining you huge ev, or he calls and you either win or lose, which is still +EV because it was practically equivalent to him calling your all in to begin with.

By "pot committing raise" i mean a really rediculous raise, like if you both have 800 chips raise to 400 to 600. He may incorrectly fold for a 300 bet on flop.

[The Don]

Open pushing with more than 10xBB is truly horrible. I am 100% absolutely positive you will be more successful if you do not do this. This is assuming that you have at least average skills (for your level) on the flop. If you are scared to play postflop please quit poker now.

[ChipLeader]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Aces are also much better than kings and few people realize this.

[/ QUOTE ]

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[/ QUOTE ]

I hope this isnt sarcastic?

[morgan180]

"Although it is common, that strategy is terrible. When you have a strong hand, your goal should be to get called by weaker hands, not to pick up the pot. there is usually far more [chips] to be won in your opponents' stacks than there is in the pot."

- NPA Ed Miller, GSIHE

[benkahuna]

I think you should play the players and be pretty sure the conditions are right to open push. Unless ppl are calling all ins consistently with hands like JTs, I consider conditions not very good. On paradise poker and the Prima network, I've seen this, on some other sites (UB, pokerroom.com, pokerstars) I have not.

Generally, I think open pushing will just give others a chance to make a good fold and you'll get poor value from your super rare, super strong hands, only getting called by a stronger hand. You're not going to get the maximum value from your hand which means you're compromising your EV which makes for less than optimal play. You've got to take chances to make more money which means taking chances you'll get outflopped or outdrawn. If you meet too much plausible resistance on the flop, you'll just have to release your AA overpair. The best players will sometimes fold the best hand.

[Moonsugar]

If you plan to only play the 11s for the rest of your poker life its probably not too bad cause you will get called way to often.

If you plan on moving up or playing any format besides 800 chip party sng structure it is horrible. These 'tricky' postflop decisions are where you make a lot of chips in poker.

[Moonsugar]

[ QUOTE ]
Open pushing with more than 10xBB is truly horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am curious, why is open pushing with 9x BB considered great but open pushing with 11x BB considered horrible?

[Raiser]

[ QUOTE ]
I ALWAYS push with AA KK at any time - coz if us raise 4XBB u still end up with 4/5 callers and one of them has flopped a freaky str/flush draw/pr and will call the your all in flop push

[/ QUOTE ]

Having 4 or 5 opponents call your raise is a good thing. As long as you can use some postflop skills you are still gaining EV even if you have to fold on the flop. Anytime there is a huge pot that you are not involved in you gain EV.

[ldavidjm]

Aces and Kings are about the only hands I'm NOT pushing even when below 10BB. I'd rather put two easier to call amounts in (i.e. blinds 50/100 my stack is 800, raise to 400 and push the flop). I think there was a thread about this not long back that its better to raise than push Aces and Kings.

Probably the one exception to this is if I get Aces or Kings on the very first hand I will occasionally open push over a bunch of limpers, because regular players don't believe you, and the maniacs want to take a "coinflip" with their pocket 3's.

And a push isn't magically good because you have 9BB and back because you have 11. The 10BB rule is just a general guideline towards when you're nearing push/fold range. Every situation is bad, and I don't like raising 3BB out of position with AK when I only have 11BB, so I may just push it. Best to get out of the mindset of hard and fast rules...

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
Open pushing with more than 10xBB is truly horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Level 5 (Blinds 50-100)
UTG (t1300) folds
Button (hero) (t1100) AcJd raises all-in
SB (t950)
BB (t4650)

How is this horrible? IMO, doing anything but pushing here would be horrible.