Beware of Push When SB Has You Covered... T or F?

[KramerTM]

This is coming from the guy who gets pushed off hands with min-reraies, remember.

***** Hand History for Game 2446800922 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $50 Buy-in + $5 Entry Fee Trny:14378770 Level:4 Blinds(50/100) - Saturday, July 30, 00:50:55 EDT 2005
Table Table 16929 (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 7
Seat 1: prz12 ( $1570 )
Seat 3: G_Pop ( $1390 )
Seat 4: Quatio ( $1465 )
Seat 5: kcmortgage ( $920 )
Seat 6: Hero ( $1565 )
Seat 7: xhimex ( $2510 )
Seat 10: ringelj6 ( $580 )
Trny:14378770 Level:4
Blinds(50/100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ 8c 8d ]
prz12 folds.
G_Pop folds.
Quatio folds.
kcmortgage folds.
Hero is all-In [1565]
xhimex calls [1515].
ringelj6 folds.

[psyduck]

Bad all-in with 16 [censored] BB. Raise 3x, fold to a re-raise (unless shortie pushes of course)

[Shillx]

Easy push here compared to folding, even if your flip your hand face up. Raising less then all-in might be an even better idea, but in an SNG format I would just move in here.

Brad

[KramerTM]

[ QUOTE ]
Easy push here compared to folding, even if your flip your hand face up. Raising less then all-in might be an even better idea, but in an SNG format I would just move in here.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this response much more than the first one that says to raise less than all-in. I don't think I can fold to a re-raise anyway, therefore my all-in
1. Has more FE because it's a bigger bet to call
2. Will prevent the idiot who thinks his re-raise will have any FE from making any sort of donkish move on me

How's my thinking here?

[psyduck]

Trust me, I know the whole point of pushing instead of raising 3x. What I'm saying is that you have a speculative hand, and you don't HAVE to push because you have 16BB. If your stack was 10BB instead, this would be a fine push. However, at 16BB, you cannot call a raise or a push as easily from the other stack.

[KramerTM]

So you would advocate a raise of 3xBB and fold to a re-reaise from the big stack?

This is huge whole in my game, so believe me... I appreciate the input. I just want to make sure I fully understand your perspective.

[lastchance]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Easy push here compared to folding, even if your flip your hand face up. Raising less then all-in might be an even better idea, but in an SNG format I would just move in here.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this response much more than the first one that says to raise less than all-in. I don't think I can fold to a re-raise anyway, therefore my all-in
1. Has more FE because it's a bigger bet to call
2. Will prevent the idiot who thinks his re-raise will have any FE from making any sort of donkish move on me

How's my thinking here?

[/ QUOTE ]
At the same time, you're moving over 15x BB into the pot. You're not giving your opponent the chance to do a lovely call and check to you, where you're moving in 90% of the time.

And yeah, I raise 2.5x BB.

[KramerTM]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Easy push here compared to folding, even if your flip your hand face up. Raising less then all-in might be an even better idea, but in an SNG format I would just move in here.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this response much more than the first one that says to raise less than all-in. I don't think I can fold to a re-raise anyway, therefore my all-in
1. Has more FE because it's a bigger bet to call
2. Will prevent the idiot who thinks his re-raise will have any FE from making any sort of donkish move on me

How's my thinking here?

[/ QUOTE ]
At the same time, you're moving over 15x BB into the pot. You're not giving your opponent the chance to do a lovely call and check to you, where you're moving in 90% of the time.

And yeah, I raise 2.5x BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

And fold to a reraise? Sometimes seems wrong about that. Villain may rereaise with a wide range of hands on a resteal. If you're saying raise 2.5xBB with the intention of calling an all-in (hoping to get him to move with Ax or a lower PP) then that makes some sense to me.

Let me know what you mean. That's an interesting take.

[jeffraider]

Raise 3xbb, fold if raised. I think someone pulling a genuine resteal with nothing on you here is fairly rare. Just play it straight forward.

[psyduck]

Re-steals are pretty rare without solid hands. In other words, unless you have a reason to believe that villain will re-steal (maybe a spite call if you've been raising a lot in the past), you can raise 3x here. There are not nearly many people that will re-steal push with junk. If anything, it'll be a hand like AT or KQ from him that's push, and this is where you can fold.

Remember, there's a reason you push, and that's because when you're pushing, you assume a calling range for him, and based on card frequency and stack sizes, a push is EV+ in a given situation. The threshold is something like 10BB outside of the blinds, and up to 13BB from the SB (assuming equal stacks) for the push to be EV+. If you are pushing 15BB, there is something wrong. You push because

a) higher chance the villain will fold
b) if villain pushes himself to your steal, you have odds to call.

this makes sense for 10BB outside of the blinds, and 13BB inside of the blinds. now if villain pushes in this hand, you cannot profitably call after your 3x raise, because you'd still have a 12BB stack, and you cannot reasonably determine where you stand.

[KramerTM]

I agree pushing is wrong. You have convinced me of that.

I'm still not convinced that I should lay this down to a re-reaise. Villain will push with two overs along with an overpair. Can someone run this through pokerstove and see what comes out for the following situation...

After I raise 3xBB, Villain goes all in
Villain's hand range = A8+, 66+

Maybe this is a good time for me to get off my lazy ass and learn how to use pokerstove.

[psyduck]

It might be EV+ to call chip-wise to that range, but when you call and lose, you miss out on all the equity you would have gained by pushing in later hands.

[psyduck]

If villain is an idiot or this is a low buy-in, you can extend that range to any ace and any pair /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[KramerTM]

It was a $55 and Villain had shown no signs of idiocy so far.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
Bad all-in with 16 [censored] BB. Raise 3x, fold to a re-raise (unless shortie pushes of course)

[/ QUOTE ]

Well this is definitely NOT a bad all-in. Some other options as raising less PF etc are possible and good too, but all-in is surely +EV in any sense.

Just note that if you raise here 3x with 88 and fold EVERY TIME to a reraise by the big-stack (your statements are very clear about doing it), you are playing an extremely exploitable game. Part of the reason you might want to push here is becuse you prefer SB to fold some high cards combinations (some of A9 and above, K9 and above, etc , although you don't expect him to fold monsters of course), instead of him making a move on you. Also, you want to prevent the disastrous scenario in which he reraises you all-in with a smaller PP (or some other hand you're way ahead of) and you fold.

Another thing you forget in your analysis in this thread, is that since you raise 3xBB from the button, this raise does not represent much strength (open raising from LP), and many players might put you on some steal attept and re-raise you with a lot of hands. It's not rare. Therefore, this situation is a bit tricky for a hand like 88. So by pushing you are also "protecting" your rather good hand.

All in all, this situation is not as clear-cut as you put it in this thread, and as a default move (certainly against aggressive opponents) a push is a good move. With a better read of the players and situation, smaller raises are also good.

[Pete H]

[ QUOTE ]
Just note that if you raise here 3x with 88 and fold EVERY TIME to a reraise by the big-stack (your statements are very clear about doing it), you are playing an extremely exploitable game.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see 3xBB raise and fold to a reraise that exploitable as a concept.

Only players that can read your soul are able to put you on 88 after 3xBB raise.

Pushing with hands like 88-JJ and raising 3xBB only with better hands that want action sounds more exploitable to me.

But I play lower than the 55's, so I don't know if there are enough donks that'll make 88 push and AA 3xraise most profitable moves.

[curtains]

You aren't playing an easily exploitable game if you call with a decent number of hands that you raise 3x the BB here. I'm actually quite tight in these spots on the button, so if I do raise, theres a greater than normal chance that I'll call an allin. In other words, I often won't bother stealing here with something like A6o.

But okay let's say you plan to call a reraise with AQ+ and 99+. Let's also say you raise with the following hands:

55+,A7o+,A2s+,KQo,KTs+

and this list is not a completely unreasonable range,

Anyway this would generally mean that'd you'd call an allin bet about 1/3rd of the time if I'm not mistaken, although forgive me this is a very quick estimate. I'm not really excited to move allin there in the SB when I know Ill be called about one out of three times. Also you can raise to 250-275 to cut down the odds a little bit for the SB to just move allin on you.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see 3xBB raise and fold to a reraise that exploitable as a concept.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you fold to a reraise EVERY TIME (as I said above), it is very exploitable. BTW, doing it with a hand like 88 is worse than doing it with complete garbage.

[ QUOTE ]
Only players that can read your soul are able to put you on 88 after 3xBB raise.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't quite understand this point.

[ QUOTE ]
Pushing with hands like 88-JJ and raising 3xBB only with better hands that want action sounds more exploitable to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, I don't quite see your point. I didn't recommend doing so, but in any case, it is much less exploitable than you think, especially if you raise 3x (or push in certain cases) with a relatively wide range, like you should do in this position.

[curtains]

PM - Doing it with 88 is much better than doing it with complete garbage. The BB is more of a focal point of this hand than the SB, and we will of course have to call the shortstakced BB if they move allin whether we have garbage or not.

Thus for this hand it's clearly important to have some kind of hand, meaning that it's much better to raise to 3x the BB with 88 and fold to a SB reraise than it would be to do the same with 76o.

[PrayingMantis]

I agree with most of your points. It's not so expoitable if you are willing to call a reraise all-in a certain (siginficant) % of the time. My point was of course with regard to raising and folding to an all-in _every time_ which is how I read the original advice.

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway this would generally mean that'd you'd call an allin bet about 1/3rd of the time

[/ QUOTE ]

This sounds pretty good to me, although this is exactly the spot where your read of SB could really mean a lot, and change this % in a big way. For instance (without a specific read) you'll have to call more in higher buy-ins than in the mid-lower ones. However, in the lowest limits there's a big probablity for a call by SB, so that's a different scenario.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
PM - Doing it with 88 is much better than doing it with complete garbage. The BB is more of a focal point of this hand than the SB

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. The BB here changes this situation and you do "want" a hand. I missed this point on the previous reply.

[11t]

Pushing with 15xbb is a little excessive imo.

The only hand I would probably do this with is AK.

[KramerTM]

The SB had A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, btw. If he was to turn these cards face up before you acted, would a fold be your correct play? I think understanding this may help me understand why a push here is incorrect.

[YourFoxyGrandma]

[ QUOTE ]
All in all, this situation is not as clear-cut as you put it in this thread, and as a default move (certainly against aggressive opponents) a push is a good move. With a better read of the players and situation, smaller raises are also good.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is probably the case, though perhaps not exactly as stated; I'll argue a little. Pushing is clearly +EV, though in most cases, raising is probably better. I think this is a simple case of risk/reward. You stand to win t150, but risk 1600 to do so. All-in usually works here, but it isn't worth 16 BBs.

I also think a steal re-raise is usually rare here, and I don't think raising and folding to a reraise makes you highly exploitable, assuming you can adjust properly as to counteract said exploitation, i.e. open pushing.

[ QUOTE ]
The SB had AJ, btw. If he was to turn these cards face up before you acted, would a fold be your correct play? I think understanding this may help me understand why a push here is incorrect.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this were the case, I'd still raise it up. You don't see AJ reraise much at this point, I don't think. I'd bet the flop too, if he missed /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

[PrayingMantis]

Well if you raise to 300 and SB pushes and shows you AJs, you call, but that's not really helpful, since you never have this kind of information. If his range consists of higher cards combination AND higher pairs, it becomes a fold. My whole point in this thread was a bit theoretical, since it dealt with the fact that raising and folding to an all-in everytime SB puts you all-in is exploitable in the sense that you open yourself to many bad folds against a tough aggressive SB.

Of course curtains points are valid too - if you are going to call a certain % of the time you initially raise (regardless of the specific hands now), this is a strong counter measure against the optimal strategy in the former case (which is, obviously, pushing against you every single time). This might sound a bit theretical, but it's good to keep all this in mind, IMO.

[ QUOTE ]
I think understanding this may help me understand why a push here is incorrect.

[/ QUOTE ]

The most important thing IMO is to understand that pushing is _not_ incorrect. The question is whether it's the best option to maximize your EV in this situation, and against many normal opponents it's probably not. I completely agree with all posters who advocate raising a normal raise to begin with, although pushing can't be very far from the best play, and therefore is not a mistake. Folding is a mistake.

BTW, some of the cases in which pushing might get you a somewhat better results, are exactly the cases in which SB might fold to a push, but reraise (or even just call) if you raise smaller. You get better results if he simply folds his AJs, and he could very well do this if you push. The same is true for other hands too, like AT, KQ and others.