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AdamL
07-29-2005, 11:35 PM
Hey guys,

I'm looking for advice on getting started with a guitar and amp. I have been playing (just hacking around) with my Dad and he's a very experienced player, he suggested I should buy a guitar and starter amp of my own and start learning.

I know myself well enough to know that if the thing doesn't sound good to me, I'll loose interest. So while I'm looking for "starter" level everything, I also would benefit from it sounding appealing to me.

My favorite guitar sound (and style) is the David Gilmour Pink Floyd style stuff. I know they have a lot of equipment and I don't expect miracles, but it'd be nice if the sound was closer to that than say, a metal guitar or acoustic sound. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I hope my lack of experience isn't showing through too much here, hehe.

Help appreciated, thanks.

JaBlue
07-29-2005, 11:40 PM
If you can't live with a crappy sound from a beginner guitar you're better off learning another instrument.

turnipmonster
07-29-2005, 11:51 PM
don't worry too much about the instrument, you just need to get a guitar that will stay in tune. a low end fender or yamaha should do the trick. most of the sound you get out of the instrument comes from your hands, the way you hold the pick, etc.

<unsolicited music advice>

the most important thing you can develop as a musician is your ear. learn to hear melodies and pick them out on your guitar. david gilmour solos are great for this because they're so melodic, and easy to hear and approximate. even when you're first starting out, try and use your ear all the time and pick out what you're hearing on your instrument. start out with happy birthday or mary had a little lamb.

</unsolicited music advice>

--turnipmonster

07-30-2005, 12:11 AM
[ QUOTE ]
My favorite guitar sound (and style) is the David Gilmour Pink Floyd style stuff. I know they have a lot of equipment and I don't expect miracles, but it'd be nice if the sound was closer to that

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you could buy a John Suhr strat ($3k), Mesa Boogie Mark IV ($2k), and throw in a TC Electronic G-force ($2k), and you will have great tone, but you will still sound like [censored].

Basically, there's no way around it; you have to put in the time- it's not the gear, it's the player. Just get a package deal (yamaha,fender,washburn) and get started. In my opinion, the Yamaha (package) has the better playing guitar.

JaBlue
07-30-2005, 12:24 AM
and I would advise not to buy squier gear. Squier REALLY sucks.

nothumb
07-30-2005, 02:32 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Basically, there's no way around it; you have to put in the time- it's not the gear, it's the player. Just get a package deal (yamaha,fender,washburn) and get started. In my opinion, the Yamaha (package) has the better playing guitar.

[/ QUOTE ]

My favorite guitar action-wise is still my Yamaha Pacifica from the mid-90's. Doesn't sound very great, but I never got over learning on that thing. Loved it.

NT

ILL34GL3
07-30-2005, 03:31 AM
Buy a cheap ass $100-$200 guitar and a cheap ass amp and maybe a disortion pedal.

Judging by your post, you seem like you're already looking for a reason to quit the hobby, so don't bother spending much.

Have fun.

AdamL
07-30-2005, 03:33 AM
I don't understand why some get off on being so discouraging and (I think) cruel to others. Thanks for the advice to those who offered it with kind intentions. I think I'll head up tomorrow and get a Yamaha starter package.

Wish me luck!

whiskeytown
07-30-2005, 03:34 AM
it'll take time and practice - I recommend a Stratocaster copy (cheap and similar to Floyd) with a cheap effects unit or amp with cheap effects built in like chorus and delay to get that echo and sound -

RB

JaBlue
07-30-2005, 03:42 AM
Good luck Adam.

Actually I Think the best advice is for you to try out all the guitars <200$ and see what you like best. See how you like the action, neck, etc. Still don't buy a squier though.

PS you will sound like [censored] at first. There's no way to get around it except practice. At least you'll get better by leaps and bounds in the beginning.

07-30-2005, 04:01 AM
Yeah, I hope you didn't take my comments the wrong way. You have a long road ahead of you, and a basic guitar (decent action, plays in tune) will suit you well. I have a friend, who owns a music store, so as far as the package deals go, I'd recommend the Yamaha (I've played many of the other starter kits).

You could also bring your dad, (or someone else that plays), to try out a couple of low-line guitars and choose the best guitar for you, and buy an Ibanez amp (with effects; Tone Blaster, I think) for less than $300 total ($200 for the guitar, $100 for the amp).

Good luck, and let us know what you bought.

TStoneMBD
07-30-2005, 05:44 AM
ironically, ive recently considered taking up guitar as well but havent gone out and purchased one. (i might)

i stumbled across this website www.guitartricks.com (http://www.guitartricks.com) that you might be interested in. internet lectures on how to play guitar.

SammyKid11
07-30-2005, 06:08 AM
Adam...

This all depends on your budget. I am a professional musician, record producer, and record company owner and have played guitar, drums, bass, piano, Hammond organ and sung professionally for the last 7 years. You don't have to start out with crap -- it's all a percentage thing. Of course you're going to really love a Les Paul custom and dual rectifier boutique amp with a sophisticated pedal board. It'll sound great...once you learn to play it. But, gear like that will also cost you somewhere in the 8k range. If you make 200k/year, that might not be that big an investment to you. If you make 30k/year, then you'd be unwise to spend that much before you know whether you're going to stick with it.

For lower-end gear that still sounds good, you can get a Mexican made Strat or a low-end LP for decent money. For smallish/cheapish self-contained amps (that don't need cabs), I think Fender has a good product. Personally, I think Yamaha makes crappy guitars and I wouldn't go that route...but in this people have their own opinions. No serious players that I know, however, would be caught dead with anything Yamaha (at least in guitar, in keys they're one of the standard-bearers).

Hope this helps.

07-30-2005, 08:19 AM
Let's keep it in perspective... he is just starting out. Nowhere did I say Yamaha makes a great guitar for 'serious players'. I merely said that of the STARTER kits, the Yamaha is the better guitar. If you don't believe me, go to your local music store and play the starter (package kits) Fender, Gibson and so on, and tell me which one you think is the better guitar; it's not even close.

The Fender has to be the absolute worst (of the name brands)- impossible to get the action low (even with neck adjustments), when you do get it lower, the adjustment screws stick out to the point where they chew up your right hand. The fret-wire sticks out past the neck and needs to be filed. The nut is too high and needs to be sanded or the slots cut deeper. Intonation? Forget about it. My nephew bought one, and I had to rip the frets out, re-plane the neck (yes, the radius of the fingerboard was incorrect and uneven), install new frets and a nut. I would charge $400 to do that work. Yes the Yamaha is a piece of [censored], but it is the best piece of [censored] for the price. Go play a few, especially the Fenders.

No serious player I know would be caught dead with a Mex Strat (ah, you see the point, yes? We are talking about someone who’s just starting out).

To a serious player, I could not recommend a Fender or a Gibson (unless it is from their respective custom shops). They haven’t made a real guitar in about 15 years. Twenty years ago, you could pull a Les Paul Custom off the shelf, and it would be a killer guitar. Now, you have to order a ‘custom shop’ Paul Custom for $5k, just to get the same guitar. So yeah, if he’s got around a $10k budget, then I would recommend what I did in my first post, and if he doesn’t stick with it, well, he can sell it to his dad for 75% off.

MrTrik
07-30-2005, 08:23 AM
My advice:

Go to a good guitar store. Some place that employs musicians and serious guitar techs rather than high school kids. Take your dad with you or another knowlegable guitarist.

Buy a used Fender or Gibson. A used Stratocaster or Telecaster for instance.

This should be inexpensive, just make sure a tech will check it out and set it up.

Next, buy a cheap amp. Something from Crate works fine. Maybe $80.

Next get a multi-function box like a Boss-90. This will give you way more sounds than you can imagine and you can easily set it up to sound like anyone you like. Setups are freely available all over the net to get you the exact sound you want. This unit should be around $80.

You'll need some funds for a few books, but work the internet first. Chord charts, lead tabs are all over the net and free.

You need to buy this cheap gear with the understanding if you stick with guitar you'll upgrade down the road. If the guitar is an American made Fender though, you may never need to upgrade that. But you will probably buy more guitars down the road if you stick with guitar.

Now, go play until your fingers bleed.

SammyKid11
07-30-2005, 08:44 AM
I will admit, Mitch, that I know nothing about the current status of starter kits. I've played on nothing but Taylor acoustics and Les Paul custom electrics for 10 years, and the lead guitarist I use for most every project is a Fender guy. I do know he would take serious issue with your comment that they haven't made a real guitar in 15 years, as he's a top-shelf working studio pro who uses nothing but strats and teles...some of them are older, some of them are from the Custom Shop (especially since his dad used to be the vice-president of sales for Fender), but some of them are newer guitars he's picked up and liked. He has more technical guitar knowledge than I do...but I'd trust him to the moon and back to not play shite on serious-level sessions.

IMO, a Mexican strat is superior to a Yamaha starter guitar. And I agree with the above post as well...pick up a used American made strat and you'll be in better shape as long as it's been setup properly.

But in my first post, I wasn't even necessarily responding to you...just that I'd go somewhere higher than a crappy starter axe. You can do that for a very reasonable amount of money.

Plus, I like advising new musicians to spend a bit on their purchase (not a ton, but more than bare minimum)...I find it causes them to work harder out of the gate and stick with it longer...precisely because they've made a significant (even if not pricey) investment.

MrTrik
07-30-2005, 08:57 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Plus, I like advising new musicians to spend a bit on their purchase (not a ton, but more than bare minimum)...I find it causes them to work harder out of the gate and stick with it longer...precisely because they've made a significant (even if not pricey) investment.

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to have this attitude as well. But I've coached so many people and very few actually take to guitar. So I say get in cheap and see if it sticks. Spending more money up front will pay off in the long run, but that's only true if you stick with the guitar. I've taken one on one lessons at various times. A good guitar player can make cheap equipment sound awesome. So I say save the money until you are sure you want to invest bigger bux.

07-30-2005, 09:34 AM
Of course a mex strat is better than a Yamaha starter guitar; that's why it's $200 more.

Taylor, well, now you're talking. I have not played a Taylor I didn't like.

Don't get me wrong, I like Fender and Gibson, but only the good ones (I have maybe twenty of them). Occasionally, you can yank a USA made Fender off the shelf and it has a quality feel to it. They certainly sound good but don't play nearly as well as their upper-line stuff.

What city do you work in? I was a session guitarist for nearly 20 years; I might know your friend.

KungFuSandwich
07-30-2005, 10:47 AM
get a decent tuner (~$50) and tune your guitar every day. I like the ones that can stay on your guitar.

If you dont your guitar will sound like crap, no matter how good it is, and it will take much longer for you to develop relative pitch. (playing by feel)

ChipWrecked
07-30-2005, 12:49 PM
If you want to copy licks from recordings, remember that when Gilmour was starting out, those guys were trying to sound like the old blues players.

So go to the source and pick up licks from B.B. King, Robert Johnson, Howlin' Wolf, Muddy Waters and so on.

ILL34GL3
07-30-2005, 02:48 PM
If you buy a cheap guitar with a vibrato bar, make sure the springs are strong enough to keep the tremolo unit flush against the body. Otherwise, you could have bad tuning problems. Oh yeah, get an electronic chromatic tuner for sure. I got a Korg CA-20 for like $20. It'll help you to sound as good as possible.

AdamL
07-30-2005, 07:21 PM
Lots more good advice in this thread, thanks for it. I appreciate the debate and differences of opinions too, it's nice to have alternatives.

I went to the store today and got a little info. I was planning on just picking up the Yamaha kit, but that's not something they offer... well, not exactly.

Here's what the guy told me. He said a Peavey Raptor (link) (http://www.peavey.com/products/browse.cfm/action/detail/cat/43/item/105558/number/00489450/RaptorSeries.cfm) was a good place for me to start. I gather this is a Stratocaster design. I'm not at all concerned with image, and so I wonder what the differences in sound are between this and the Yamaha model? Alternatively, to the Raptor, was an Oscar Schmidt OX10. Same price, looked a little better built but I don't know what to look for really.

The Yamaha they had was the Pacifica 112, which was $80 more.

For the amp, the fellow said to grab a Peavey Rage ($99) and that would suit me fine. I live in an apartment, so blasting it doesn't matter to me. What I'm really looking for I guess is crisp clear sound, and no plastic parts muffling and vibrating. (God I hate that.)

Thought I'd run this by you guys before I made any moves. I appreciate the suggestion about getting an FX Box. I suppose those will work fine with any amp?

Thanks again guys. Much appreciated.

The Goober
07-30-2005, 09:01 PM
When you first start playing, the effects processor that you get will seem to make all the difference in your sound. The different sounds that you get from different guitars/amps is subtle and will take a while for your ear to pick up, but the difference between a clean tone and one dripping with chorus, reverb, distortion, etc... is very obvious. So, get a decent multi-effects processor and it will give you lots of different sounds to play around with. You may be able to get one with a line-level output that you can hook up to your stereo, and then you can skip the amp altogether. Experienced players will balk at this (and you will too, eventually) but for now its not a bad way to go - especially if your effects processor has as amp simulator built into it (also, your stereo will do a much better job at getting the full range of sound without being too loud). Eventually, you'll probably get tired on this somewhat artificial sound, but there's no reason to spend much money until you really know what you are looking for.

AdamL
07-30-2005, 09:48 PM
I'm actually looking at them right now over at the BOSS website. I'm not sure what the equivalent is to the Boss-90 as prior suggested by another poster, as they don't seem to have the Boss-90 anymore. Maybe the ME-50? I smell more $$ /images/graemlins/smile.gif

07-30-2005, 11:55 PM
Don't search the Boss site, search www.musiciansfriend.com (http://www.musiciansfriend.com) that way you will know what Guitar Center sells it for, since they own GC.

I think you should just buy an amp with DSP built into it, that way you won't have to mess with presets, and it will be cheaper than buying both, however, it won't be as flexible.

guller
07-31-2005, 12:16 PM
Fender has made some of the best guitars over the last 20 years. Except they sold them under the name G&L.

07-31-2005, 07:47 PM
I was excited when Leo released G&L around 1980. I bought three or four if I remember correctly, the first year. I have not played their recent line, so I can't comment on that. Is the quality still up to par since the passing of Leo in the early 90's?

MrTrik
07-31-2005, 08:02 PM
The benefit of buying a separate effects processor is totally flexibility. It allows your sound to be portable. For instance, if you start jamming with friends, you can easily use their amps and such but keep whatever sound you have in mind. Also, if guitar sticks for you, you will eventually upgrade beyond a starter amp and the effects are portable there too.

I bought my Boss90 years ago and I was using it more as an example than a specific recommendation. I probably wasn't clear on that. I think I spent $79 on the unit a couple of years ago because I was looking for a toy. Turned out to be money well spent for me since I use it a ton and it has saved me enormous amounts of gadget money which I could have spent on more and more single or narrow use effects boxes.

I'm sure Boss and other companies offer newer more capabable products for even cheaper these days.

07-31-2005, 09:02 PM
I'm well aware of all the pros and cons of having separate effects (I'm aware you probably listed this for his benefit), but again, it all comes down to a bunch of ifs. If the guitar sticks... if he jams with friends... if he upgrades his amp....

The guy doesn't yet know the difference between a G-string and a Speedo. The real truth is, even an Eventide H8000 combined with a Lexicon PCM91, will not inspire him to practice.

In all honesty, he really should just buy a decent playing acoustic guitar, and get to work. If he really wants an electric, buy one and plug it into the computer and use the DSP effects off of the sound card. Even a soundblaster sound card has better digital effects than any $100 pedal board. If in six months he’s still 100% committed, well then go nuts- buy the store out.

MrTrik
08-01-2005, 09:06 AM
I guess we will agree to disagree on this. I happen to think that a guy that wants pink floyd sound (or whatever his/her tastes are) will be much more motivated to practice and improve if he can actually get that sound out of his set up.

I recommended one way to achieve this for a couple hundred bucks. I won't stop recommending that approach when people ask, but I understand your point of view as well.

guller
08-01-2005, 10:03 AM
Yep, top notch quality. I just picked up one last month.

For the OP:

I would probably go the pawn shop route and get something mid range pricewise. If you buy a starter set it's pretty much garbage after your through with it. If you buy something decent used, you'll get almost all your money back on resale. Don't worry about the brand name, have your dad go and play a few that you like and pick the best player of the bunch. Get a cheap amp with built in distortion and reverb, one patch cable, and your good to start learning.

You will definately get frustrated at first, but keep at it. Good luck.

eastbay
08-01-2005, 11:11 AM
Sound is 90% amp, 10% guitar. For a beginner's ears, it is probably more like 100% amp.

Try one of the lower end Line6's. They make a wide variety of sounds that you can experiment with, and you can get high gain sounds at very low volume, which is important.

eastbay

LetYouDown
08-01-2005, 11:27 AM
As far as acoustics go...I've been an acoustic player for several years (no desire to play electric). I own an acoustic/electric Yamaha that came out ~1998ish. Cost me about $450 and it's an incredible guitar. Tone is crisp, fretboard/neck are excellent, stays in tune, I was able to adjust the action really low without any fret buzz, etc. I still play it all the time. It sounds better than plenty of brand new Martins I've played...even after they were adjusted. For the most part, any stock Martin/Taylor I've played needed a serious amount of adjustment before it was even remotely playable. By the time you get to the 12th fret, the strings are 1/4" off the fretboard. When it comes to acoustics, you really really need to sit down and play it for a significant period of time before you walk out the door. Several of my friends have $4000 pieces of crap. I realize it may not be even remotely similar when it comes to electric guitars. I will say that one of my friends has a Taylor 714CE that is absolutely incredible. Unfortunately, he knows the value of a good guitar and won't sell it to me.

Random question. I've been a strictly recreational player for a long long time. Lately I've been toying with the idea of recording some chord progressions and then adding lead over it and mixing them. Is there a cheap way to do this with a computer? The guitars I own all have electric outputs...but they obviously aren't fitting into the line-in plug on my soundcard ;-). I imagine there's a reasonable solution for this out there somewhere...I just don't know what it is. Any help would be nice!

08-01-2005, 12:49 PM
What's your price range when you say cheap? Also, you need to convert your 1/4" jack to a 1/8" mini to connect to your computer.

LetYouDown
08-01-2005, 01:43 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Also, you need to convert your 1/4" jack to a 1/8" mini to connect to your computer.

[/ QUOTE ]
That was essentially the question...was I unclear? What's the easiest/cheapest method of doing this? Semantics for "cheap" shouldn't be an issue as I've qualified it as cheapest now.

MrTrik
08-01-2005, 02:07 PM
For a buck or two you can buy a cable that adapts the 1/4" to 1/8". My only advice is to do your research if you are doing anything beyond the simplest stuff. It is very easy to nuke a digital input by applying analog to it. It can in fact destroy your computer if you screw up bad enough. My brother in law just did this to a very expensive electronic drum set. He destroyed a $1000 controller by plugging my guitar into an input using an adapter I'm speaking of.

08-01-2005, 02:12 PM
I suppose I wasn't clear- once you convert your jack to connect to the sound card, you will need some type of software to actually record your tracks. This will range from $50 or so on up.

If you gave a specific dollar amount you would like to stay within, I could have recommended the best software for the money.

guller
08-01-2005, 03:20 PM
The M-Audio Audiophile 192 soundcard has 1/4" inputs for around $180. You will also want to get some kind of preamp. M-Audio Audiobuddy preamp is about $80. For software check out NTracks for about $50.

This is a bare bones minimum setup. You could get a 1/4" to 1/8" adapter but you will have poor sound and latency problems with cheaper soundcards.

I think NTracks has a free download trial, try it to see if it works for you.

AdamL
08-01-2005, 06:57 PM
Picked up a nice little Yamaha 112 and a practice amp today, and am having a good time with them /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Thanks for everyone's help.

I have a Soundblaster Audigy card on my machine, how do I use the effects on it? Any ideas?

08-01-2005, 10:27 PM
When I suggested using the effects from your sound card, it was assuming you wouldn't be buying an amp and would use the computer speakers. Since you bought an amp, you would have to loop it through the sound card to get the effects to come through the amp. While this is possible, it's not easy (tweaking the windows mixer) for someone new to it. Plugging straight in is a (relative) snap, but looping is a different story.

Since you have a guitar and an amp now, get to practicing. In a month or so (or week), if you want effects, get something like this (http://www.samash.com/catalog/showitem.asp?ItemPos=3&TempID=4&STRID=22046&Method =3&CategoryID=1036&BrandID=0&PriceRangeID=0&PageNu m=0&DepartmentID=1&pagesize=10&SortMethod=3&Search Phrase=&Contains=&Search_Type=Department&GroupCode =) .

Al P
09-08-2005, 08:38 PM
How goes the guitar playing?

I'm thinking about picking up an axe.

AdamL
09-08-2005, 09:46 PM
Hey,

Goes well! I'm having a lot of fun, and I'm finding the learning isn't as much a grind as I half-expected it to be. I have some nice callouses (or however you spell that) on my fingers now. /images/graemlins/smile.gif