Aces, and raised on the flop

[fuzzbox]

400 PP 6-max

Hero (380) UTG with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/spade.gif
Villain (400) UTG+1

Preflop
Hero makes it 15, villain calls

Flop (Pot 35)
4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif
Hero bets 35, Villain raises to 80

Whats my plan ?

[amoeba]

call, lead the non heart turn for 90.

basically all your options sort of suck but thats the best line I can come up with.

[amoeba]

I assume no reads at all?

[spoohunter]

This is a very vague subject. I know most don't, but I reraise here, to $200 calling a push. It's heads up and I have ace's.

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
call, lead the non heart turn for 90.

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe a little more than $90..$125 or so because i don't want to get bluff-raised.

also, i'd make the same bet on /images/graemlins/heart.gif turn. there's just as good a chance that he has a set and the heart will slow him down as there is of him having a heart draw.

[spoohunter]

"
also, i'd make the same bet on turn. there's just as good a chance that he has a set and the heart will slow him down as there is of him having a heart draw. "

This is really silly.

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
This is really silly.

[/ QUOTE ]

elaborate

[fuzzbox]

[ QUOTE ]
call, lead the non heart turn for 90.

basically all your options sort of suck but thats the best line I can come up with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pot on the turn will be about 200 if I call. I will have about 280 left.
If I bet 90, then what do I do if he calls/minraises/pushes ?

[amoeba]

if we had some reads, this would be a fine place to put recently discussed baye's theorem in to practice.

[amoeba]

i fold.

but if you are uncomfortable with this then I would either fold now and wait until I get a read or use spoohunter's line of reraising now to 200.

the problem with betting 90 on the turn is not if he reraises but if he smoothcalls then pushes a blank river.

[fuzzbox]

[ QUOTE ]
i fold.

but if you are uncomfortable with this then I would either fold now and wait until I get a read or use spoonhunter's line of reraising now to 200.

the problem with betting 90 on the turn is not if he reraises but if he smoothcalls then pushes a blank river.

[/ QUOTE ]

You always fold this spot ?
You think he never makes this play with KK-TT ?

[amoeba]

you are saying he raises the flop, push the turn with those hands but doesn't reraise preflop?

sure its possible but its highly unlikely.

time for baye's theory.

[paulewalnutz]

IMO, there is absolutely no reason to call this. If you think he'd never do this with TPTK or an overpair, or a flush draw, you could fold and maybe you should. I'd have to be pretty sure, and with a flop raise, as opposed to a turn raise after a call, or an even stronger check-call, I'm pushing the pot here. I believe that raising the pot would put me in a position where I'm all in on the turn, as is he if he calls. Therefore, I'm going all in, and this guy's going to have to beat my AA.

I do this for 2 reasons. 1) he could be learning the easiest "trick" to a "tricky" player: raise a pf raiser when he bets out on a garbage flop; 2) if I call, which seems to be the prevailing attitude, this guy's going to think I hold AK, holding what is likely to be J-10 suited with a flush draw, or A9 - then he'll bet out to drive my AK out, and I'm in a tough spot with a hand that's beating a ton of hands that raise that flop.

Therefore, I put my money in the center, and chalk it up to what some call advertising if I get beat. I look at it as not wanting to get pushed out of pots, especially with AA. Change it to JJ and maybe I'd fold.

My two cents.

[fuzzbox]

[ QUOTE ]
you are saying he raises the flop, push the turn with those hands but doesn't reraise preflop?

sure its possible but its highly unlikely.

time for baye's theory.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are many players who would flat call KK-TT and raise a flop that had all-unders on it.

[amoeba]

AK doesn't call the raise typically but if calling the flop raise allows him to think you have AK, wouldn't you want to call?

he can't bet me out since I'm leading the turn for 1/2 pot or so.

If he is brave enough to raise there with A9 or pair under AA or flush draw then yeah, he's got me. good bluff. but typically most people don't make this turn raise as considering my remaining stack, fold equity looks pretty low.

if you are going to get it all in on this flop somehow, then you must also occasionally do it with AK here.

[amoeba]

I agree.

but would they raise a turn 1/2 pot bet?

[elus2]

a good percentage of the time, i'll check raise all-in most turn cards here. some of the time i'll check/call down. very infrequently i'll check/fold the turn. in order to fold i'll need a read that tells me he has a set. bet/folding to a raise on the turn seems kind of silly unless we're given reason to believe that villain only plays like that with the nut/near-nut.

[elus2]

you can force villain to commit a bigger error on the turn by check-raising on that street. reraising on the flop makes it an easy fold for most of the hands we get value from on future streets. this is based on the assumption that we are paying him off if he flopped a set.

[fuzzbox]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree.

but would they raise a turn 1/2 pot bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

They might do, but what if they just flat call ... then what on the river ?

[theben]

[ QUOTE ]

basically all your options sort of suck but thats the best line I can come up with.

[/ QUOTE ]

haha, so true

[fuzzbox]

[ QUOTE ]
you can force villain to commit a bigger error on the turn by check-raising on that street. reraising on the flop makes it an easy fold for most of the hands we get value from on future streets. this is based on the assumption that we are paying him off if he flopped a set.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you call - what hands do you expect villain to bet on the turn ?

[elus2]

when we're ahead, villain bets here with a lot of overpairs for two reasons. first he wants to make a flush draw pay. second, he'll want us to check the river so he can check behind and thus controls his showdown price. he has position and if he's smart he plays his hand in this manner a good percentage of the time.

[PokerCat69]

[ QUOTE ]
if we had some reads, this would be a fine place to put recently discussed baye's theorem in to practice.

[/ QUOTE ]
If hero had a read he would've known what to do and wouldn't have posted this in the first place.

Its when you don't have a read that plays become alot harder.

[theben]

any info on villian at all? he might easily have TT-QQ and be testing you. would he raise on a heart draw? i think at this game/level, its definetly possible. however, this bet does reek of a set. . .

[elus2]

why limit our opponent's range to those hands only in this heads-up pot. i think the following are very easy to have:

pair+flush draw, flush+straight draw, smaller pairs like 88, tptk, nut flush draw, etc.

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
They might do, but what if they just flat call ... then what on the river ?

[/ QUOTE ]

check/fold...the hands you're beating will want to check it down even more than you.

[amoeba]

if you attempt checkraise on the turn, and he is on flush draw, he just checks behind.

[amoeba]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if we had some reads, this would be a fine place to put recently discussed baye's theorem in to practice.

[/ QUOTE ]
If hero had a read he would've known what to do and wouldn't have posted this in the first place.

Its when you don't have a read that plays become alot harder.

[/ QUOTE ]

you can have a read without pinpointing villains exact hand.

For example, knowing that villain is capable of semibluffing with a flush draw here does not exclude the possibility that he has a set but it at least defines his range a bit better.

[amoeba]

alright, what about calling the raise,

betting 1/2 pot on the turn and NOT folding to any further aggression if you aren't afraid of losing to a set.