first 6-max hand: KQs in SB

[@bsolute_luck]

okay this is from my first short 6-max session. definitely nervous and real shakey on preflop stuff and iffy on postflop aggression.

and reads are more difficult for me to adjust since the hand ranges are much larger now, plus the table i'm at is uber-loose/passive preflop and a mix of LAG/LP postflop.

UTG: the basic read i can gather is that his raising range is pretty tight preflop from UTG, calls down with at least 2nd pair, but will fold if dangerous board and seems beaten. hasn't played enough hands with me to think much of what/how i play.

BB is just a loose/passive doofus who typically calls to at least the turn on any draw/pair regardless of board.

Hero is SB K/images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Preflop
<font color="red">UTG raises</font>, folded to Hero, Hero calls, BB calls.

I got a little shook up here figuring I was supposed to reraise, but I wasn't sure based on my position plus if villain's hands were semi-tight and BB was coming along for 1 more sb, I'd rather him be stuck in the middle increasing the pot. bad?

Flop K/images/graemlins/heart.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Hero checks, BB checks, <font color="red">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls, BB calls.

good flop for my hand. 3-handed, he can't figure me for a King, plus I have the BDFD if behind to AA,KK, AK. BB is probably drawing really thin here too, so i'm not going to check/raise, but wait 'til the turn.

Turn 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
<font color="red">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, UTG calls.

I figured I'd donkbet this as QQ-TT are drawing thin and might think I'm only semi-bluffing a flush draw rather than a K, and if I'm behind to AA-KK, AK, even if he reraises, I have outs to the flush, and would make the river easier to guess I should fold even though I have TPTK. and, if he only had UI overcards or a smaller pair, it is doubtful he'll bet this turn with 2 other people in the hand, so i'd hate to have this check through.

what do you think? should I play more straightforward or am I thinking pretty well?

[deception5]

I would be tempted to reraise, but calling is good as well. You disguise the strength of your hand, you're out of position, etc. I like to try and knock out the BB though.

Since you didn't raise preflop, I would lead the flop. This doesn't indicate huge strength and UTG's reaction would give a pretty good indication of whether he has a better hand. He's not letting go of his premium hand on the flop regardless.

[@bsolute_luck]

if you had QQ-TT or UI overcards you wouldn't let them go if bet into? that's what i didn't want to happen and figured would happen if i bet into him.

[Marquis]

The way you played it preflop, I'd checkraise the flop.

[deception5]

I don't think he's giving you credit for a king if you lead out on the flop after just calling preflop. You also said he'd call down with 2nd pair so there's a good chance he's not letting go of QQ-TT.

[deception5]

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The way you played it preflop, I'd checkraise the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not crazy about this. Our hand is likely the best and the only possible draw is a straight draw. There are only too opponents. I'm more concerned with extracting the maximum here than knocking out the BB after the flop.

[Marquis]

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The way you played it preflop, I'd checkraise the flop.

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I'm not crazy about this. Our hand is likely the best and the only possible draw is a straight draw. There are only too opponents. I'm more concerned with extracting the maximum here than knocking out the BB after the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

"BB is just a loose/passive doofus who typically calls to at least the turn on any draw/pair regardless of board."

He'll call anyway.

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think he's giving you credit for a king if you lead out on the flop after just calling preflop. You also said he'd call down with 2nd pair so there's a good chance he's not letting go of QQ-TT.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah i did say that. i was also wondering when i get in this same situation what is suggested to do. would you call this? - remember i'm a basic unknown to this guy other than knowing i don't cold call, haven't 3-bet preflop, or gone to a showdown yet.

forgive me if it sounds like i'm simply just arguing your points, but since this is my first shot at 6-max, i figure i have some lines of thinking to adjust: the hands my opponents play, hands i play, and what my opponents think i have.

would you call down if you didn't have the K? because if you call the flop and i'm donkbetting you with an 8, i'm probably going to bet again on the turn.

or maybe i should ask what would you do if you had the 8- say A8s with a BDFD? would you donkbet this?

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
BB is just a loose/passive doofus who typically calls to at least the turn on any draw/pair regardless of board."

He'll call anyway

[/ QUOTE ]

okay, maybe i should be more definitive in my description. he's a doofus, but he isn't a "calling 2 bets back with nothing" doofus. but he will call w/o the K.

plus my c/r i figured would #1 fold BB, and #2 scare UTG into folding on the flop or the turn UI, so i didn't want either of these to happen.

[deception5]

With no reads I would probably raise you on the flop.

[McGahee]

I think you're on the right track.

PF I hate this situation. Conventional wisdom says to 3-bet any hand you're going to play, but with KQs against a tight raiser you could easily be dominated by UTG and I'd almost rather invite BB to the party by calling. Folding feels kinda dirty.

I don't have a problem with the flop or turn; though I'd probably rather just lead the flop and go from there. If he raises for a free card that's fine by me - that only means we're getting more $ in with the best hand on the flop, BB will get trapped for 2 bets, and you probably weren't going to bet the turn anyway if you didn't pick up your flush draw, right?

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
you probably weren't going to bet the turn anyway if you didn't pick up your flush draw, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually the flush draw would make me consider check/calling the turn instead if the preflop raiser raised the flop. I would hate to bet the turn and get raised and have to call knowing that I'm behind. And a free card wouldn't be terrible.

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
you probably weren't going to bet the turn anyway if you didn't pick up your flush draw, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

i would guess it would depend on what fell, but most likely i would have c/r at that point. or check/call, (river card dependent) bet/call...something like that.

Leading the flop: probably a good idea based on deception's thinking that he'd raise me w/o reads, giving me more options later in the hand, plus BB would have probably called my initial bet anyways.

[@bsolute_luck]

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you probably weren't going to bet the turn anyway if you didn't pick up your flush draw, right?

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Actually the flush draw would make me consider check/calling the turn instead if the preflop raiser raised the flop. I would hate to bet the turn and get raised and have to call knowing that I'm behind. And a free card wouldn't be terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

see i thought the exact opposite. i wouldn't care if it got raised as i have increased outs to beat it. i would, however, hate to have it raised w/o the additional outs knowing i'm behind with fewer ways to improve.

[McGahee]

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you probably weren't going to bet the turn anyway if you didn't pick up your flush draw, right?

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Actually the flush draw would make me consider check/calling the turn instead if the preflop raiser raised the flop. I would hate to bet the turn and get raised and have to call knowing that I'm behind. And a free card wouldn't be terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, that's what I was saying. If I get raised on the flop I'm check/calling the turn regardless of the turn card. If he bets I'll call with outs and BB's dead $, if he checks that's cool too, I'll value-bet the river.

[imported_The Vibesman]

I don't think I'd reraise the UTG raiser OOP either, I'm interested to see what the others say.

Thinking on the rest of it seems pretty good. Interesting hand.

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
see i thought the exact opposite. i wouldn't care if it got raised as i have increased outs to beat it. i would, however, hate to have it raised w/o the additional outs knowing i'm behind with fewer ways to improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to think the same thing. And if the turn was not a diamond I would bet it.

Thing is, we might be ahead or behind now. If we hit the flush we've got a monster unexpected hand and we'd prefer to get our money in then. We also may induce a bet from a weaker hand. But I'd rather go to war on the river with the unlikely backdoor flush when I am confident I'm ahead of AA/AK/KK.

[McGahee]

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you probably weren't going to bet the turn anyway if you didn't pick up your flush draw, right?

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Actually the flush draw would make me consider check/calling the turn instead if the preflop raiser raised the flop. I would hate to bet the turn and get raised and have to call knowing that I'm behind. And a free card wouldn't be terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

see i thought the exact opposite. i wouldn't care if it got raised as i have increased outs to beat it. i would, however, hate to have it raised w/o the additional outs knowing i'm behind with fewer ways to improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

Try to get out of this line of thinking. In general you want to bet/raise without outs and check/call with outs on the turn. Of course there are exceptions.
In this particular case I don't mind the turn bet because BB appears to be donating, and you'd hate to see this get checked thru with the best hand after only 1 bet went in on the flop.

Edit: Lets say you open raise the button and you're HU in position with A5 against a blind. He checks you bet he calls a T9x flop. I am more inclined to fire again on this turn when I have A5 than if I had AK. It's more likely you have 6 clean outs with AK, you can fold to a C/R easier w/ A5 and plus AK has slightly more showdown value if he decides to bluff the river.

[@bsolute_luck]

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see i thought the exact opposite. i wouldn't care if it got raised as i have increased outs to beat it. i would, however, hate to have it raised w/o the additional outs knowing i'm behind with fewer ways to improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to think the same thing. And if the turn was not a diamond I would bet it.

Thing is, we might be ahead or behind now. If we hit the flush we've got a monster unexpected hand and we'd prefer to get our money in then. We also may induce a bet from a weaker hand. But I'd rather go to war on the river with the unlikely backdoor flush when I am confident I'm ahead of AA/AK/KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

...that's true. i probably wouldn't get paid for my flush by playing the way i did. so what would you do if you donkbet the turn non-/images/graemlins/diamond.gif and are raised? call and fold the river UI? i guess it would be hard for me to fold TPGK if i'm raised on the turn.

...but i guess rare is the person raising with a hand that doesn't beat the K on the flop unless he views me as a bluffer (obviously not this hand). i'll have to think about that one.

okay, what about this question: what if you didn't have the flush draw, say K/images/graemlins/spade.gifQ/images/graemlins/spade.gif- would you rather donkbet w/o the flush draw on a board that looks like a flush draw? probably too many questions /images/graemlins/grin.gif but that's how i think /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
In this particular case I don't mind the turn bet because BB appears to be donating, and you'd hate to see this get checked thru with the best hand after only 1 bet went in on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

this was more my reason for it: i didn't want it getting checked through.

[baronzeus]

3bet preflop or fold.

If you just plan on calling the flop, check/raise the turn. Villain will hardly ever fold to one bet and he will put that extra bet in even though he is probably drawing to 2 or 3 outs.

Also, you can't count on BB calling your bet here. You're better off getting 2 bets out of villain #1 on the turn.

[@bsolute_luck]

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3bet preflop or fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

why do you see it that simple? what's wrong with calling?

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Villain will hardly ever fold to one bet

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that's the point isn't it? who said i wanted him to fold?


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and he will put that extra bet in even though he is probably drawing to 2 or 3 outs.

[/ QUOTE ] do you mean he'll reraise me on the turn or he'll put in the extra bet by just calling? do you think he'll fold if i check/raise him?

[ QUOTE ]
Also, you can't count on BB calling your bet here. You're better off getting 2 bets out of villain #1 on the turn.

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if you were villain and had UI overcards a lower pocket pair (lower than a K), would you still bet this turn with 2 other people in the hand? or would you check this through and simply call the river if bet into?

[@bsolute_luck]

To everyone taking the time to respond to this thread: obviously thank you for your help and thoughts. i just wanted to clarify, I am not trying to be tricky or argumentative. i simply want to improve my game and thinking both for full ring and this new 6-max arena.

i will share the results when i get home from work (~5:00pm EST) and you'll then understand why i ask these questions. okay..work is almost over, so i'll be back in 1/2hr /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Somekid]

I think you need to 3-bet KQs preflop. You would be 3-betting PF for value and to get the hand heads-up.

I think you need to bet the flop. If you had a marginal hand you could take advantage of relative position and c/r but your hand is too strong to isolate the UTG player. I don't like the deception value of check/calling top pair since you can bet the flop for value.

Given the way you played it I think a turn bet is fine.

[baronzeus]

My point is that he'll never fold if you check/raise him on the turn, unless he is on a stone cold bluff, which I doubt given the situation. All of this is read dependent; but him calling your extra big bet on the turn might be +.9BB for you if he is drawing as slim as he probably is.

A note about preflop: The problem with calling here is 1) "cold calling" from the SB gives BB too good of odds to call. One of the biggest advantages you have over your opponents is their lost value preflop, and you need to exploit it. 2) Imagine the flop came J/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif and you completely whiff (like you will a majority of the time). With BB to act behind behind you, you can usually get away with peeling one getting 7:1 or 8:1 but you must fold the turn UI, which costs you too much in the long run.

To 3bet, you must have a fairly loose raiser. Make sure he raises marginal hands (like I would in that position, QTo, QJo, KJo, etc) that you can have dominated easily, as well as medium pocket pairs, where you have a distinct advantage as long as he doesn't hit his set. 3betting then, does 2 things: 1, it isolates him. Since you miss most flops, you want to get BB out, regardless of how 'fishy' he is. Two, HU you have a lot more fold equity, and while being OOP seems like a disadvantage, it gives you a first chance to bluff at a very raggy flop. Keep in mind that such bluffs only need to work 1 in 7 times for them to be +EV, and even less if you have outs to the best hand.

Basically against a loose raiser, I 3bet here and bet the flop regardless.

[McGahee]

[ QUOTE ]
Basically against a loose raiser, I 3bet here and bet the flop regardless.

[/ QUOTE ]

And against a tight raiser from EP.....?

[deception5]

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In this particular case I don't mind the turn bet because BB appears to be donating, and you'd hate to see this get checked thru with the best hand after only 1 bet went in on the flop.


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this was more my reason for it: i didn't want it getting checked through.

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I agree with this. My point was if we bet the flop and get raised and were to just call then I would check call the turn when I improved with a flush draw.

[baronzeus]

Honestly EP doesn't mean as much in 6max games, especially in lower limits where people don't have a good sense of position importance. You're only dominated/far behind by 5 hands here, AA, KK, QQ, AK, AQ, and if he has any of those you're about to find out when he caps you.

[deception5]

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Make sure he raises marginal hands (like I would in that position, QTo, QJo, KJo, etc) that you can have dominated easily

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I think QJo is about the lowest I'd go there, and it would have to be against very poor players.

[baronzeus]

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Make sure he raises marginal hands (like I would in that position, QTo, QJo, KJo, etc) that you can have dominated easily

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I think QJo is about the lowest I'd go there, and it would have to be against very poor players.

[/ QUOTE ]

I raise QTo in EP at most tables, but it's usually against better (tighter) players. I'm the 30/20 type 6max player though, not the 23/16 type.

[deception5]

Makes sense... I was around 30/20 for a while but at these limits I've been having more success as a 25/17.

[baronzeus]

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Makes sense... I was around 30/20 for a while but at these limits I've been having more success as a 25/17.

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30/20 takes a lot of practice and is a lot more variant. Just remember that even at 25/17 the long term is truly a lot of hand.

[@bsolute_luck]

okay, here's the river...

River T/images/graemlins/club.gif
<font color="red">Hero bets</font>, bb folds, <font color="red">UTG raises</font>, Hero calls.

UTG flips over TT for the rivered 2 outer.

i wanted to know:
#1 if there were other ways i could play this hand
#2 if it is my fault that i got sucked out on or was there a way for me to avoid this.

[baronzeus]

I'll try not to be results oriented.
The hand would have plyed out differently if:

1) You 3bet preflop and kept on the gas.
2) You check/raised the turn instead of betting out.

Sure, in situation 2 he would have probably sucked out anyhow, but you would have been able to get 2 bets out of him when you were like a 85% favorite to win, which is like making 1.7BBs. You also would have been able to fold the river, with a good enough read on him.

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
#1 if there were other ways i could play this hand

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course... But would you really want to fold someone drawing so thin against you?

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#2 if it is my fault that i got sucked out on or was there a way for me to avoid this.

[/ QUOTE ]

You played it fine. He hit one of 4-5 outs (depending if he had the flush ten or not). This is great for you, there was a 90% chance you were going to beat him on the turn.