Hm.

[shadow29]

Oh man. CO sucks so hard in this hand. His stats are 50/8 with 0.00,0.25,3.00 af factors street by street. 71.43 WTSD. I trust these stats.

Saw him limp UTG with Q9 and then call flop and turn with QJT5 board, river check he bet, checkraise he call.

He also called down with MP with A on board against 3 opponents.

UTG is like the same opponent. Except he always folds on the river. His WTSD is 20. But other than that, he plays identically to CO.

This might be a little loose of a limp, but both SB and BB hadn't raised in two orbits and everyone really sucked. Hard.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. CO posts a blind of $3.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO (poster) checks, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls, CO calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls.

River: (8.50 BB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Hero calls, UTG folds.

Final Pot: 13.50 BB

I just called the turn donkbet because a) I didn't want to get 3-bet when I had outs and b) I sorta wanted him to keep bluffing if he was doing so and c) I didn't want to get 3-bet if he had the best hand.

Don't be afraid of responding because of the limit. Limits don't really matter.

[Bradyams]

If the two limpers are as loose and bad as you say they are I think I'd raise preflop. Not sure if that's correct, but I'd do it FWIW.

After that I'd say it looks good. I'm tempted to raise the turn cause if we are behind we have a lot of outs against two pair, or a slowplayed set. Not sure if facing UTG with two cold would be a good or a bad thing.

[shadow29]

[ QUOTE ]

If the two limpers are as loose and bad as you say they are I think I'd raise preflop. Not sure if that's correct, but I'd do it FWIW.

[/ QUOTE ]

meh.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm tempted to raise the turn cause if we are behind we have a lot of outs against two pair, or a slowplayed set.

[/ QUOTE ]

That doesn't make sense to me.

[Bradyams]

The hand just seems really confusing to me, so my thoughts are probably all screwed up though. Good job on getting me to think.

Do you think your pair of queens is ahead on the turn?

Also my second statement doesn't make sense to me either now. Thanks for pointing that out.

[GrunchCan]

I was thinking as I read this that..

[ QUOTE ]
His stats are 50/8 with 0.00,0.25,3.00 af factors street by street

[/ QUOTE ]

...meant that this guy LOVES to get tricky and CR the end. Then I saw...

[ QUOTE ]
River: (8.50 BB) 6 (3 players)
UTG checks, CO checks

[/ QUOTE ]

...and was thinking "CHECKRAISE! CHECKRAISE!"

I think you should have trusted your reads, and just checked the river for the same reasons why you didn't raise the turn.

Other than that, I think you played this hand beautifully. I would have entered this pot, too. Not loose at all.

[DeathDonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
This might be a little loose of a limp

[/ QUOTE ]

My first thought is you are way too tight. I would raise this preflop and limp with tons of trash given your reads.

-DeathDonkey

[@bsolute_luck]

preflop is standard.

in truth, i probably would have either raised the turn or checked behind on the river- either we have him beat on the turn and it's worth a reraise or we don't (straight, 2pr) and this is just a doofus check.

i guess it's pretty tough to put him on a hand based on stats, but are his stats indicative of his bluffing nature? why would he lead into you on a J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif?

[deception5]

I like that you just called preflop here. You already have the button and you have a decent hand especially against these loose players. Your hand isn't really strong enough to punish them yet.

I also like the rest of the hand. Just calling the turn makes sense because of the straight outs you picked up.

The check/raise sucks but I think you have to call it especially since there's a good chance he'd do this with a missed draw given his aggression on the river.

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
...meant that this guy LOVES to get tricky and CR the end. Then I saw...

...and was thinking "CHECKRAISE! CHECKRAISE!"

I think you should have trusted your reads, and just checked the river for the same reasons why you didn't raise the turn.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is a great point.

[Vote4Pedro]

This looks like an obvious 3bet, fold to cap...Actually, I play this the same way, sometimes im raising this PF, sometimes im limping. Flop is standard. The turn is the only part that bothers me. Given the AF provided, I highly doubt either of these goons is gonna 3bet you unless they have the nuts. Personally I like the 3bet, but your reasoning against a 3bet makes sense. River is fine, theres no way I'm letting this get checked through...if the douche made a play on you, big deal

[MrWookie47]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...meant that this guy LOVES to get tricky and CR the end. Then I saw...

...and was thinking "CHECKRAISE! CHECKRAISE!"

I think you should have trusted your reads, and just checked the river for the same reasons why you didn't raise the turn.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is a great point.

[/ QUOTE ]

Edit: But I would have played this exactly like you. It looks like I have some things to think about.

[shadow29]

[ QUOTE ]
I was thinking as I read this that..

[ QUOTE ]
His stats are 50/8 with 0.00,0.25,3.00 af factors street by street

[/ QUOTE ]

...meant that this guy LOVES to get tricky and CR the end.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ya!
[ QUOTE ]

Then I saw...

[ QUOTE ]
River: (8.50 BB) 6 (3 players)
UTG checks, CO checks

[/ QUOTE ]

...and was thinking "CHECKRAISE! CHECKRAISE!"


[/ QUOTE ]

Me too. But I was sorta thinking that he likes to c/r and try and win the pot. So I value bet, even though I "knew" he was going to c/r.

[ QUOTE ]
I think you should have trusted your reads, and just checked the river for the same reasons why you didn't raise the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but I was thinking that I had a value bet at the end. The river is a lot different than the turn in that I don't have to pay 3 bets and there is not another card coming (obvious points, but important nontheless).

[ QUOTE ]
Other than that, I think you played this hand beautifully. I would have entered this pot, too. Not loose at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not hard to play beautiful hands when you really rock at poker. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[shadow29]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This might be a little loose of a limp

[/ QUOTE ]

My first thought is you are way too tight. I would raise this preflop and limp with tons of trash given your reads.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

Hm yeah. My stats are a little funky for this game: 22/17. Prolly more than a little funky. But I've got a Joe Tall report on the way. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
It's not hard to play beautiful hands when you really rock at poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh, I wouldn't know... /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[shadow29]

[ QUOTE ]
preflop is standard.

in truth, i probably would have either raised the turn or checked behind on the river- either we have him beat on the turn and it's worth a reraise or we don't (straight, 2pr)

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that we can still be ahead &gt;50% and not want to raise the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
and this is just a doofus check.

[/ QUOTE ]

This guy is a doofus. But I thought that I had some value in betting the river.

[ QUOTE ]
i guess it's pretty tough to put him on a hand based on stats, but are his stats indicative of his bluffing nature? why would he lead into you on a J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif?

[/ QUOTE ]

He could be semi-bluffing with a 9 or K or "value" betting a J. Or a total bluff. I have no respect for my 3/6 sh opponents.

[Vote4Pedro]

[ QUOTE ]
It's not hard to play beautiful hands when youre the godfather of table selection


[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[McGahee]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...meant that this guy LOVES to get tricky and CR the end. Then I saw...

...and was thinking "CHECKRAISE! CHECKRAISE!"

I think you should have trusted your reads, and just checked the river for the same reasons why you didn't raise the turn.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is a great point.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno, I don't care much that he likes to get tricky if:
A) There's a pretty good chance I have the best hand and I'm not folding.
B) I'm getting overlay from UTG when he's stuck in the middle on the river, where as he has to call 2 cold if hero raises the turn.

I'd play it the same.

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
I have no respect for my 3/6 sh opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]
hahah, and i'm scared of my .5/1 opponents /images/graemlins/laugh.gif misa gots lotsa to learn for 6-max /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[shadow29]

Bump for the evening crowd.

Also, what do you guys think about my thoughts re: river value bet.

[SCfuji]

pf: limp is awesome

[ QUOTE ]
I just called the turn donkbet because a) I didn't want to get 3-bet when I had outs and b) I sorta wanted him to keep bluffing if he was doing so and c) I didn't want to get 3-bet if he had the best hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

a) and c) seem to go together since what you said in a) leads to you thinking you are most likely behind.

that being said i think you might have out thought yourself into being a bit weak on the turn and overlooked a really good opportunity to isolate the CO. yes utg folds a lot on the river, but if he hits a bingo card on the river hes not going to fold.

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
misa gots lotsa to learn for 6-max /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


aaaaaaaiiiiiiieeeeeeeeee! Jar Jar Binks reference! My eyes...my eyes are bleeding!

[silkyslim]

I don't have aggression by street up on my HUD but given that he is very passive until river and gets crazy I would check through. Then again I got donkbet c/r today I was so pissed. I like your reasoning for just calling the turn, but can you explain not wanting to get 3-bet when you have outs in more detail?

[shadow29]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't have aggression by street up on my HUD but given that he is very passive until river and gets crazy I would check through.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya, but I dunno. Fearing goofy river play is pretty bad if it scares you into not value betting.

[ QUOTE ]
...but can you explain not wanting to get 3-bet when you have outs in more detail?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not the best on explaining this concept. I just sorta understand it intuitively (like most things in poker). I'll do my best though.

If we raise for value and get 3-bet, then we are most certainly behind. We'd rather not pay more for our draw here, because if we miss on the river, we have to fold. Furthermore, calling on the turn and river costs the same as raising and calling a 3-bet and folding the river, but it gets us to showdown.

I know that wasn't the best explanation. It's basically a iteration of "check with outs", so maybe you can bridge the gap yourself.

[SCfuji]

id really prefer this line if it were heads up. having another villain makes this tricky dont you think?

[shadow29]

[ QUOTE ]
id really prefer this line if it were heads up. having another villain makes this tricky dont you think?

[/ QUOTE ]

Definetly. But UTG folds so much on the river, I'm not concerned with him until he does something.