Facing a turn reraise with TPTK

[arch12]

Hey guys,

What's your opinion on this hand and your suggested line.
No accurate reads on the opponents given that I had only played 10 or so hands with them, so consider me readless.

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with: A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif
MP1/Villain calls, 4 folds, <font color="red"> hero raises</font>, <font color="red">CO reraises</font>, 3 folds, Villain calls, hero calls



Dealing Flop: (10SB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif
villain checks, <font color="red">hero bets</font>, CO calls, villain calls



Dealing Turn: (~7BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif
<font color="red">villain bets</font>, <font color="red">hero raises</font>, CO folds, <font color="red">villain reraises</font>, Hero…

[Frank Zappy]

Raises.

You just joined the table, TPTK, Villain coldcalled 2 bets PF, Push it and Make him Show it down!

He's got anything from A7, JT, 76 to K4, but you don't know him so you have to play your hand.

[krimson]

Call down. I would suspect the donk-bet/3-bet is a set, but if he only has 2-pair then we still have plenty of outs against him. I think the cap that was suggested here is spewing vs an unknown.

[W. Deranged]

I don't like this reasoning at all.

Making new players show down hands is not a good reason to spew big bets.

Just because you don't know a player doesn't mean it's likely that he's running a pure bluff or way overplaying top pair or something like that.

Note that the cold-call pre-flop could mean a connecting/speculative type hand like J10 that may have made a big hand.

The only options here in my opinion are folding the turn or calling down. You do have outs against two pair here, but it's hard to tell what those outs are (because many of your counterfeiting outs may make a boat for villain). Even if you hit a perfect card on the river (another A or K), you are not in a great position, and probably can't raise the river.

Basically, this is a standard turn situation where the odds to improve don't merit a call on their own and so you must decide whether you feel you are likely enough to be good to continue. Hence, calling the turn will necessitate also calling the river. Against an unknown with little chance of improving, getting around 13-2 or so on a call down (meaning you need to have 13% equity here), with anywhere between 0 and 11 possible outs (and the chance you're good), I probably bite the bullet and call down, but I'm not happy about it. And I'm too loose in most of these situations anyway.

Capping the turn here is spewing, plain and simple. If you cap and villain leads the river you are going to be ahead here basically none of the time. People don't (edit: usually) three-bet the turn for nothing.

[AVF2k1]

I misread the hand so I have removed my thoughts.

/Oscar

[W. Deranged]

AV--

I'm confused. River action hasn't been posted yet. Are you talking about the turn.

Also, I VERY STRONGLY encourage anyone replying to posts to justify any statement involving the phrase "you have to..."

Saying "you have to call..." says nothing. Why? For drawing odds? Because we are ahead of enough hands in villain's range? Because of our profile of villain???

Fighting sloppy logic,
W.D.

[Sarge85]

[ QUOTE ]
Raises.

You just joined the table, TPTK, Villain coldcalled 2 bets PF, Push it and Make him Show it down!

He's got anything from A7, JT, 76 to K4, but you don't know him so you have to play your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Make him show it down?

It's quite clear to me that he is, and I find your advice to be somewhat reckless.

While I'm certainly not folding here, by no means to I feel the need to spew chips.

Folding could be an option if I knew the player. A lot of the times even with a known manaic, call down is going to be a vialabe option.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[butters]

...calls and calls a blank on the river. he could be jamming a pair + a draw here, so i'd want to see a showdown.

[MrEngenic]

Capping the turn would be a BIG mistake. People dont usually 3-bet the turn with nothing.
I'd call this down against an unknown but I'd expect to be beat.

[AVF2k1]

Hmmm...

I have no idea why I thought the action was on the river... Just disregard what I wrote.

I apologies for my "sloppy logic". I will be better in the future to clarify why I advocate a certain play.

/Oscar

[W. Deranged]

No problem Oscar...

My encouragement was by no means aimed specifically at you, but to everyone. Poker players love to say why they "have to" do stuff. Often they actually do, but it's always good when you have time to think about plays to think about why it is you "have to" do what you have to do.

[AVF2k1]

I totally agree, and since I'm a scientist I should have known better than to claim something without backing it up with facts.

You have at least made me change my way of writing posts, so you are one step closer to your goal.

Cheers

[callmedonnie]

That board is pretty coordinated. I think I call turn and then a river bet, especially barring reads. his preflop play is tough to read.

I know CO folded, but are we assuming he had tens or jacks? maybe slick?

[arch12]

Thanks for the quick responses guys. I actually opted to fold this one. I usually like to consider unknowns more on the passive side (as the majority of players are) and thus respect their raises a lot more. Facing a reraise I don't feel I'll win it enough times to warrant calling down; despite the slim chance I may outdraw an unlikely two pair. I believe a lot of posters will suggest calling down as it is the safe option; but does this situation justify calling two BB when you are confident you are behind?

[W. Deranged]

Calling down is "safe" only in a certain way. Some people would claim that folding is "safer" because you don't risk money. Others would claim calling down is "safer" because you don't risk folding the best hand.

One thing to realize is that in a pot that is not huge with a hand that does not have a lot of outs to improve, in a situation where the most logical range villain can have will have a large percentage of hands that beat you, folding can never be all that bad. It's important to figure out which is better (I think calling is), but it's also important to identify why it is that this situation is kind of marginal.

[Frank Zappy]

You're folding TPTK here?

My thoughts, and I could be wrong, since you have TPTK what better time to wrestle (gain information about your opponent is the more polite way of saying it)? If you don't like the river, call it down.

At this point, it almost dosen't even matter to me what the "Result" is, if I win or lose this particular hand. In the worst case, I'll have paid for the information on my opponent and what better time then when you have TPTK?

I can't stand the idea of folding TPTK here because some unknown person played back at me.

[W. Deranged]

That was a mistake. I got confused with this and another thread. Oops. I call down here but it is very marginal.

Note: fixed original post

[ropey]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't stand the idea of folding TPTK here because some unknown person played back at me.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is crazy. He didn't play back at you once, he played back at you twice. When he bets into on the turn, you can be pretty sure he can beat your pair of queens. And than he re-raises.

I think you have to fold.

-ropey

[arch12]

Deranged, thanks for all the replies. Your posts are typically on point, as is the case here. I think both folding and calling down are very close options in these types of situations. The problem that arises is situations like this can occur quite frequently and I feel selecting the slightly worse option can lead to an ongoing dint in your profits. While every hand is different, and should be played based on a number of variables, I've generally found folding marginal/good hands to a reraise/check-raise on the turn against passive players has worked to my advantage.

[Frank Zappy]

Well, let's see, he coldcalled 2 bets PF, checked/called the flop then bet and raised on the turn so it's a virtual certainty that he made the hand he's representing, because we all know that a poker players would never try to play the board against us even when they only have a tiny piece of the board. Misrepresenting your hand may even be illegal in certain parts of the world.

If we had the nuts we could think about calling, but since he raised (!) it can only mean we fold TPTK and never bother to find out more about our opponent.

This way, next time the same situation comes up, we'll face the same decision: Call (or raise) with the nuts or fold.

Why bother using a hand like TPTK to maybe actually win the freaking pot or worse case risk another 2 or 3 bets to learn more about our opponent?

I could be WRONG and face terrible consequences of LOSING 2 or 3 BETS and then having to face the shame of coming here and posting and being made to feel greater shame for playing in such a wreckless and thoughtless manner.

[MN_Mime]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can't stand the idea of folding TPTK here because some unknown person played back at me.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is crazy. He didn't play back at you once, he played back at you twice. When he bets into on the turn, you can be pretty sure he can beat your pair of queens. And than he re-raises.

I think you have to fold.

-ropey

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't fold this readless and for 2 BB I can find out what he calls two cold with and what he gets aggressive with. That's cheaper than picking another spot to get to a showdown. And there's a reasonable chance that I'm best.

I hold the A /images/graemlins/spade.gif, so I know he didn't just pick up a nut flush draw on the turn. If the 7 made a hand, I want to know that he's capable of drawing to a gutshot or a set with 3 overs on the board.

I think it's more likely he's saying that the 7 didn't help the poster and he's betting his TPTK or TPGK or pair &amp; draw (QJ, T9 or pair+flush draw). Those hands would probably play back at the poster twice since the poster is also an unknown.

I call down.

[chief444]

Frank,

You're quickly cluttering this forum with pretty illogical posts. It would probably benefit you to spend some time reading the micro forum since you're obviously rather new to poker or just xxxxing around. Either way, please stop.

Chief

[Frank Zappy]

Chief,

I am new here but I'm a fast study and I've pretty much "groked" the overall tone of the fairly reasonable advise here and disagree with most of it wholeheartedly. I've posted my reasons and I'm not certainly not messing around; I thought you would have gathered as much by reading my posts.

Rest assured, I will be more inclined to keep my thoughts to myself in the future.

[Jake (The Snake)]

A few quick notes why I think calling down is better than folding:

-You have no read. I think it's a mistake to assume somebody as passive.

-Board is coordinated, opponent could easily have picked up draws with hands like QTo or T/images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

-You don't want people taking shots at you later, this is even more true since you just sat down.

-You only have to be good once out of 7-8 times to break even.

Against an unknown or aggressive player I'm calling down. Only against true passives will I fold here.

[PTjvs]

Against an unknown, I pretty much always going into calldown mode here. His play is consistant with flopping bottom/2nd set, but I think in general you are good here at least 1/3rd of the time, giving you plenty of odds to call down. As others have said, if he's horrible preflop call that made 2 pair, you have plenty of outs to improve yet as well. Also, the information you gain by seeing what hand he's played in this fashion isn't completely devoid of value.

jvs

Where did this game take place and what are the stakes?

I dont think he has pocket 77 because he wouldnt call two raises preflop with that. I think his reraise on the turn could mean he has made his straight with mabye J10 suited, or slowplayed QQ, KK, or AA. Since he is first to act, I would think he couldnt call a 3 bet preflop without a strong hand. It looks like TPTK is no good here. Even if he is a new player, does he look like the type that would be jamming a draw? You have no reads at all on him?

I dont think he is jamming a draw, he has a hand made already. I would call it down though, at least call the turn because if he is on a draw (which i believe he isnt) your hand may still be good and you can even improve your hand on the river.

[PTjvs]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont think he has pocket 77 because he wouldnt call two raises preflop with that.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is small stakes. There are MORE players playing 2/4, 3/6 and the like who WILL call 3 cold with 77 than those good enough to fold it, IMO.

jvs

[chief444]

Frank,

I really didn't meant to discourage you from posting any more. But if you disagree with the majority of the advice given on this forum then it's likely that you just don't understand a lot about the game. I'm not saying it's all correct. But it's certainly not mostly wrong. And my assuming that you're fairly new to the game or at least fairly new to trying to learn the game has nothing to do with you not having many posts and everything to do with the content of those posts. So as I said you could probably pick up a lot of the basics just starting in the micro forum as a lot of the better posters here have.

Chief

When you guys advocate calling down, do you mean AFTER he's raised the turn and is facing the reraise? Because I find with TPTK, if it's HU and I pf raised and raised the flop, a donk bet by my opponent on the turn means I should just call it, not raise. Is this too conservative? Do we gain any value by raising our opponent on the turn?

Who knows mabye its 5/10...

I dont think he can call that 3 bet though regardless and then lead into the pot based on his position.

[arch12]

[ QUOTE ]
When you guys advocate calling down, do you mean AFTER he's raised the turn and is facing the reraise? Because I find with TPTK, if it's HU and I pf raised and raised the flop, a donk bet by my opponent on the turn means I should just call it, not raise. Is this too conservative? Do we gain any value by raising our opponent on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you bring up an interesting point here. The problems I see with simply calling down when bet into are:

-The opponent may be betting with a vast range of hands, including a worse Q, a redraw or a lower pair. He may also be testing the strength of your hand. I think it's too hard to narrow his hands down when he simply bets into you, and because of this I still felt I was best. A reraise suggests a lot more about the strength of his hand than a bet does.

-While calling down the initial bet will save you money when you are behind (if you choose to call down when reraised), I think you are forgoing a substantial amount of value raises when you are ahead.

-Calling down in this situation, to me, suggests you feel you are behind and in this case getting 4-1 to see a showdown is insufficient to attempt to outdraw. I feel that if you can be confident you are behind when you're bet into a better line would be to fold. Though, I highly doubt this will occur, unless you are up against an unbelievably passive, straightforward player.

[AL5AcE]

Capping turn is stupid. Call down or fold, whatever floats your boat. Folding is not bad, but you have no reads and your hand is good here more often than you think so it's not bad to call down.