Flopped 2pr to broadway flop - what should I do

[Damian UK]

Starting chips 1500, blinds 15/30

4th hand of SNG have A /images/graemlins/heart.gif Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif in the bb - 4 limpers, SB makes it 120 to play I immediately thought AK, I call (very bad if he has AK), as do all 4 limpers (no surprise there then)

Flop A /images/graemlins/spade.gif Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

SB bets 210, I raise to 510, 1st limper calls (has played every hand winning 2 without showing by overbetting the pot), all fold to BB who also calls

turn 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

BB checks - so what should I do?

I will post what I did later

Thanks

Damian

[tigerite]

I'd fold preflop. Your post doesn't make sense - SB makes it 120 to go, you call in the BB, then BB checks to you on the turn? And BB calls after you raise the flop?

[Damian UK]

I knew someone would say that
I very nearly did - 4th hand of the tourney is not the point to start getting frisky (I am identifying lots of leaks today!)

However as I didn't, any thoughts on what I should do on the flop and turn?

Thanks Tigerite

Damian

[tigerite]

If you can clarify the action. It doesn't make sense right now.

[Damian UK]

Hi Tigerite - this is my original post (slightly amended with pot values <font color="red"> </font> )

Damian

*****************************

Starting chips 1500, blinds 15/30

4th hand of $10 SNG have A /images/graemlins/heart.gif Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif in the bb - 4 limpers, SB makes it 120 to play I immediately thought AK, I call (very bad if he has AK), as do all 4 limpers (no surprise there then at this level) so 720 in the pot

Flop A /images/graemlins/spade.gif Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif


SB bets 210 - at this point I thought AK probe bet, therefore I raise to 510 hoping to isolate, 1st limper calls (has played every hand, winning 2 without showing by overbetting the pot - e.g. 400 into a pot of 120 on a raggedy flop), all fold to BB who also calls.

turn 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

BB checks - so what should I do? there are 3 spades on the flop - I put the SB on AK when he originally raised so he cant have the flush yet and the early limper in seat 4 has played every hand and made 2 overbets to win pots and 2 folds when bet at.

what should be my play? I have 830 chips left, the pot is 2240

[tigerite]

Still makes no sense, what position were you in then?

[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Tigerite - this is my original post (slightly amended with pot values <font color="red"> </font> )

Damian

*****************************

Starting chips 1500, blinds 15/30

4th hand of $10 SNG have A /images/graemlins/heart.gif Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif in the bb - 4 limpers (etc)

Flop A /images/graemlins/spade.gif Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif


SB bets 210 - at this point I thought AK probe bet, therefore I raise to 510 hoping to isolate ... (etc) all fold to BB who also calls.

turn 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

BB checks



[/ QUOTE ]

See why it doesn't make sense? You say you are in the BB, then in the action, BB is checking and calling your raises!!

[Damian UK]

sry my bad - I am in the BB, he is in the SB

so SB raises to 120, I call for another 90 in the BB, as do the limpers

SB bets the flop 210, I raise to 510 etc

Sorry for the confusion

Damian

[gumpzilla]

Go ahead and bet out again on the turn when checked to. This is a very scary board, and I don't think he has KT. The most likely holding for him is going to be pair and broadway gutshot (KQ, AK, AT, JT, take your pick) or pair and a big spade. If you're lucky he has AJ or QJ. Anyway, I'm pretty sure you're ahead, but you don't want to give free cards to his likely holdings. Plus, betting now will frequently make him check to you on the river even if he hits figuring that you'll bet again, so this will sometimes save you money when a river scare card hits. (Actually, eyeballing the stack sizes, you may not have enough money to bet the turn without pushing. If so, go ahead and push.)

If you really think he has AK PF - that is, you think he's pretty tight - you really shouldn't call the raise with AQ. But you knew that.

[AliasMrJones]

Fold preflop. Really. AQo against a PF raise and stuck between the raiser and a bunch of limpers that could wake up later is bad, bad, bad.

So, on to the turn. The pot is big enough now that I think you're in push/fold territory. I think I'd push.

[therock]

There are 720 in the pot before the flop. You likely have the best hand on a scary board. Once the SB bets 200, I would make a huge raise or push. Your raise to 500 did very little and gave the SB easy odds to call on a draw. If he has AK he has 7 outs. Concerning the other 4 limpers, if someone flopped a STR8 you have 4 outs and can start another tournamnet if you lose. I think you need to get a lot of chips in the pot very quickly on this board.

After the turn, the pot is so huge you might as well push.

[tigerite]

Ok, well, after the turn card I simply check.

[tigerite]

I don't like this line of pushing. He's not going anywhere. You have a limper who has also called to contend with too. There is simply no need to push here, why not just check, see what the limper does? At the moment you may or may not have the best hand, but whatever, you have at least got a draw to the full house, if you bet here, and get pushed on, you're gonna have to make a very hard decision, and if you push, you're going to get called if the limper has hit his flush (obviously) or by the SB anyway, so whether you see the river or not won't make a difference to that action.

Pushing gains nothing and loses everything in this spot. And I'm sorry but I think this advice "concerning the other 4 limpers, if someone flopped a STR8 you have 4 outs and can start another tournamnet if you lose." is terrible - so why push when you could just check and hit one of those 4 outs for absolutely nothing?

[Damian UK]

Thanks for all the answers - this is what I did do on the turn

SB checks - I bet half my stack (400 chips) assuming the limper will fold and trying to induce the all in from the SB (assuming my AK read is correct) however, the early limper reraises AI - the SB folds - i thought for the full 15 secs and called, putting him on Ace small or maybe 2pr

he had 3 6 spades /images/graemlins/crazy.gif so he hits his flush /images/graemlins/frown.gif

should have guessed really.....

Thanks - next time will throw it away, or (if I forget to!!) will raise the SB flop bet more (prolly 3X his bet rather than 2X)

Cheers

Damian

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, well, after the turn card I simply check.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? Nearly a third of the deck looks horrendous for you, and it's likely that if this guy is hanging around he has some kind of draw, but you don't know which one. I think you have to bet here.

[gumpzilla]

What early limper? Your description of the flop action made it sound like the only person you were up against on the turn was the SB, who had raised PF. Can you post a hand history of this hand? I'm very confused about the action now. EDIT: Okay, I went back and read it and see that I saw the "all fold to SB" and not the limper calls.

[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, well, after the turn card I simply check.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? Nearly a third of the deck looks horrendous for you, and it's likely that if this guy is hanging around he has some kind of draw, but you don't know which one. I think you have to bet here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've just posted why.

[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]
What early limper? Your description of the flop action made it sound like the only person you were up against on the turn was the SB, who had raised PF. Can you post a hand history of this hand? I'm very confused about the action now.

[/ QUOTE ]

"SB bets 210 - at this point I thought AK probe bet, therefore I raise to 510 hoping to isolate, 1st limper calls (has played every hand, winning 2 without showing by overbetting the pot - e.g. 400 into a pot of 120 on a raggedy flop), all fold to SB who also calls."

(He put BB in original post - see the "1st limper calls" bit? Who has also "played every hand" so is more likely to have "two suited cards", because he is terrible).

[AliasMrJones]

[ QUOTE ]
Pushing gains nothing and loses everything in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're very wrong. If neither other player has a straight or flush draw it denies them the proper odds to continue. I think we're frequently ahead here and I don't want to give my opponents a free chance to draw out.

[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for all the answers - this is what I did do on the turn

SB checks - I bet half my stack (400 chips) assuming the limper will fold and trying to induce the all in from the SB (assuming my AK read is correct) however, the early limper reraises AI - the SB folds - i thought for the full 15 secs and called, putting him on Ace small or maybe 2pr

he had 3 6 spades /images/graemlins/crazy.gif so he hits his flush /images/graemlins/frown.gif

should have guessed really.....

Thanks - next time will throw it away, or (if I forget to!!) will raise the SB flop bet more (prolly 3X his bet rather than 2X)

Cheers

Damian

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, there's a shock. Now if you'd checked that wouldn't have happened.

[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pushing gains nothing and loses everything in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're very wrong. If neither other player has a straight or flush draw it denies them the proper odds to continue. I think we're frequently ahead here and I don't want to give my opponents a free chance to draw out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, limper did have two suited cards, as I correctly presumed. You can't ignore reads in this spot, and that's exactly what you've done. He's a donk, he is likely to call on a flush draw, and if you bet, he raises, and you now can't see the river. Are they really going to be on a flush draw now 3 spades are on the board? Seriously? They've either hit it or have something totally different.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

(He put BB in original post - see the "1st limper calls" bit? Who has also "played every hand" so is more likely to have "two suited cards", because he is terrible).

[/ QUOTE ]

He's also more likely to have J7 or A4 than most players. While he frequently will have the draw, he can also be hanging around with garbage.

[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

(He put BB in original post - see the "1st limper calls" bit? Who has also "played every hand" so is more likely to have "two suited cards", because he is terrible).

[/ QUOTE ]

He's also more likely to have J7 or A4 than most players. While he frequently will have the draw, he can also be hanging around with garbage.

[/ QUOTE ]

So then how does it hurt us to see the river for free?!

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

So then how does it hurt us to see the river for free?!

[/ QUOTE ]

He's not the only player in the hand, he'll probably pay off TPNK hands, a third of the deck either kills our river action or costs us the pot.

[Damian UK]

So SB and I check - the limper pushes, the SB folds - what do I do now?

If you read my final hand post u will see my thinking on what the limper might have (after my turn bet I have &gt;400 chips left to win about 3.5K to his push - so its an easy call?) but if I check and he pushes I have 800 or so chips left - do I call or fold his push if I check?

This is a tricky situation - my own fault I know, but I am deep in it now! I appreciate everyones input coz I KNOW I will be in a similar situation in the future, so I could do with some advice

Thanks all

Damian

[ QUOTE ]
why not just check, see what the limper does? - so why push when you could just check and hit one of those 4 outs for absolutely nothing?

[/ QUOTE ]

[AliasMrJones]

[ QUOTE ]
SB checks - I bet half my stack (400 chips) assuming the limper will fold and trying to induce the all in from the SB (assuming my AK read is correct)

[/ QUOTE ]

I really hate this bet. Why do you assume the limper will fold for 400 more? By my calculation, there is 2,250 in the pot and your bet of 400 can be called by all manner of draws. Your thinking here looks like FPS. Don't try to be so tricky. If you're going to bet, just push.

You are going to be shown the flush here a significant percentage of the time, but I think you're ahead here more often.

[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]
So SB and I check - the limper pushes, the SB folds - what do I do now?

If you read my final hand post u will see my thinking on what the limper might have (after my turn bet I have &gt;400 chips left to win about 3.5K to his push - so its an easy call?) but if I check and he pushes I have 800 or so chips left - do I call or fold his push if I check?

This is a tricky situation - my own fault I know, but I am deep in it now! I appreciate everyones input coz I KNOW I will be in a similar situation in the future, so I could do with some advice

Thanks all

Damian



[/ QUOTE ]

You grimace and call. But I don't think he would do this. You know what these loose-passive types are like, they'll try to "slow roll" the flush now they've hit it to try to get you to "bluff" on the river. At the very least this line gives the chance for this to happen.

[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

So then how does it hurt us to see the river for free?!

[/ QUOTE ]

He's not the only player in the hand, he'll probably pay off TPNK hands, a third of the deck either kills our river action or costs us the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry but I think betting this turn goes against all tournament strategy and theory. In a ring game it's possibly right.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

You grimace and call. But I don't think he would do this. You know what these loose-passive types are like, they'll try to "slow roll" the flush now they've hit it to try to get you to "bluff" on the river. At the very least this line gives the chance for this to happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't want to push on the turn, but you'll check-call for your entire stack? I think most drawing hands are not going to try semi-bluffing here because the pot is so large, so you're just giving free cards when ahead and calling when behind. I think this is a bad line to take. If you're convinced that you're already behind, check-fold. Otherwise, push now. This is not a board where you can afford to give free cards.

[Maulik]

I didn't read any of the posts before typing my response, fwiw.

check/muck.

The /images/graemlins/spade.gif could destry you, and the fact that you are sandwiched between two players isn't very helpful. Additionally, the player acting last smooth called a huge raise, cold. So a set is likely and since this player is poor could be spades as well.

fold, to the initial preflop raise, OOP

=\

[AliasMrJones]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pushing gains nothing and loses everything in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're very wrong. If neither other player has a straight or flush draw it denies them the proper odds to continue. I think we're frequently ahead here and I don't want to give my opponents a free chance to draw out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, limper did have two suited cards, as I correctly presumed. You can't ignore reads in this spot, and that's exactly what you've done. He's a donk, he is likely to call on a flush draw, and if you bet, he raises, and you now can't see the river. Are they really going to be on a flush draw now 3 spades are on the board? Seriously? They've either hit it or have something totally different.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your logic is flawed. The fact that he plays any 2 cards DOES NOT make it more likely that he has 2 suited card. In fact, if anything it makes it less likely. If this guy is a donk, he could be calling with any piece of this flop and not just a flush draw. How about Ax? How about some piece of the flop with a gutshot? The fact is we weren't given much of a read on this guy other than: a) he plays every hand preflop and b) he took down 2 pots with big bets and no showdowns. We really don't know how he has played post flop other than those 2 bets. Has he called a lot on the flop? If so, than I think that argues even more for a push. Has he typically given up on the flop other than the 2 times he won the pot? If so, then that makes it more likely that he has a flush draw. Given that he's a donk with not much read postflop I think we're ahead here often, we can draw to 4 outs when we're not and we hate giving a free card to opponents on the draw. All that points to a push.

[tigerite]

I give up. What draws are either of them going to be on at this stage? Seriously?

Go ahead and bet or push this turn, I think it's totally unnecessary and to say you have 4 outs, yeah wonderful, I like to go out of a tournament 92% of the time when I'm behind.

[Damian UK]

thats true, he might slow play his flush so I gain a free card by checking (but with the chance to have another spade hit or another face card to make a straight) - I can't remember what the river was now (not a spade tho) - so assuming it wasn't a spade the SB checks again, and I check, and the limper pushes, the SB folds, what now?

as far as I can see I am still well and truely in the cesspit, I have top two pair, with a str and flush draw on the board, with a guy I have seen play 4 other hands without seeing any of his winning hands.

I would still place him on Ax with maybe the x being a spade, hence his calls?

I think he would defo push the river, guessing us other two have 2prs, trips, or even str's given the raises/reraises etc.

Just really confused on what I should have done

Cheers

Damian

[tigerite]

A straight draw? Of what, exactly JT? I can't believe anyone with something like KT, KJ, KQ would be still around at this stage waiting for a 4-outer. I really don't think it's likely for a straight draw to be out there at all. And if they are, the spade is going to have killed their action now, they won't bet big on the river even if it does hit, they will be too worried about the flush.

Also, and I repeat this idea from a previous point of mine in the thread, even if they do have Ax with x being a spade, or some part of the board plus a spade, they will call your push or bet anyway, so it leaves you no better off if the river does come a spade, you're still screwed.

[AliasMrJones]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't believe anyone with something like KT, KJ, KQ would be still around at this stage waiting for a 4-outer.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I can't believe he'd limp and then call a raise PF with 36s. In fact, he plays any 2 preflop as the original poster said. So why is it so hard to believe he'd continue postflop with any piece of the flop? My experience playing with "any 2" sorts of players is this is exactly what they will do with some piece of the flop (second pair, etc.) -- call.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, and I repeat this idea from a previous point of mine in the thread, even if they do have Ax with x being a spade, or some part of the board plus a spade, they will call your push or bet anyway, so it leaves you no better off if the river does come a spade, you're still screwed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, you are totally off-base. If opponent has Ax and a spade he will miss his spade draw 4 out of 5 times. He isn't getting 4-1 on his call. Thus, he loses if he calls. This is the Fundamental Theorum of Poker. The point isn't to make him go away with a draw. The point is to make him pay more than is profitable with his draw. When he calls with a flush draw, we're happy whether it comes through for him or not. How can you say you're no better off? Letting him take the river card and potentially hit his flush is what we don't want. We WANT him to call us with this hand without the proper pot odds.

BTW, I think this is close so check/fold isn't out of the question. I do think anything but a check/fold or a push is wrong. A read on the postflop play of the limper would be immensely helpful here.

[Damian UK]

My preflop play was AWFUL - i should either fold, or reraise the SB 3or4X his raise to make it about 400/500 or so in total. My thinking is this for the reraise:

If the SB really likes his hand he will reraise all in - I now have a fairly good idea he has a PP AA - 99 or A high kicker - which means I don't need to be gambling with my AQo.

BY reraising to 400/500 the limpers will probably fold unless they really like their hands, or are slowplaying a monster (in which case expect an all in) - because as I call the 90 raise the other limpers behave like sheep and believe they are getting better and better value for their hand so they all call too, minimising my chance of winning.

So why reraise? - well because at $10, people will raise with any Ax (esp suited) most Kx suited, any 2 face cards, and any pp (even down to 55/44) and poor cards like Q8 suited, 10 9 suited etc. So the odds are that the SB has one of those hands rather than AA or AK, in which case I am ahead, and he will properly throw his marginal hand.

So my reraise sorts my hand out straight away, rather than giving all the limpers a 'cheapish' flop to beat me with.

Now I know that AQo is not a hand u want to raise with, but at $10 it is - people raise all the time with marginals (examples above) and will often be all in KJ suited, A8 suited etc - for those who play higher levels, trust me they do - just sign up for a $10 and reraise all in and see what u get called with!

Anyway I will take on board the AQ fold as the best play at level 1 in a SNG- I am determined to get better at this game and as I move up I will pick my spots better - thanks for all the replies

Damian

[dinero2433]

For starters, fold AQo preflop to the big raise.

[fnord_too]

Go ahead and push since there is no way you are not committed to this pot (what, close to 2K in there and you have less than 400 behind?) and you really do not want to give a free card here.

Edit - one day I will learn to read and realize you have 800 left on the turn, not 400. Still, I think pushing is right since you need a very strong read to get away from top two here with the pot as big as it is.