How to play AK in $5/$10 SNG's?

[Damian UK]

I can't figure out how to play AK at low buy in tables, especially at level's 1 and 2.

I started off raising the standard 4XBB and end up with 5 callers - miss the flop and make a continuation bet for half or 2/3rds pot and get 3 callers etc No help turn I then fold to a decent bet and callers.

So I then up my raising to 8-10 X BB and still get 3 callers generally - yesterday did this and a raggedy flop of 4 7 9 rainbow has two all ins (I fold) one had Q4 suited and the other Q9 (sigh)

So after that debacle I decided to push all in (as I do with Aces and Kings) to see what happens - so far had 3 AK hands early doors and only one caller each time -
beat AJ /images/graemlins/smile.gif
lost to QJ suited (flush - I had the Ace of the suit)
and then lost to 10 6 suited /images/graemlins/confused.gif, I had the same suit /images/graemlins/cool.gif - he hit a FH /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

So do I limp? - well have just busted AK with 55 - A 5 x flop, I bet, he raised I reraised he called - so limping doesn't seem to help either!

So whats the concensus for pushing All In? is there any +ev, or should I just limp? or just raise 20XBB at levels 1 and 2 (which basically is about 40% of my stack anyway? so this means pushing the flop?).

I don't like limping, AK is a good hand and needs pumping, but how much?

Thanks

Damian

[tigerite]

Don't make a continuation bet with 4 or 5 callers. Simple really. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

8-10bb is ridiculous. Just bet to 3bb if no limpers, otherwise to 3bb + 1xlimper, or if you're really brave 2xlimper. It's better to keep the pot small with AK though early levels.

[wiggs73]

I think you're far-overanylzing this, based on a few hands worth of play.

A standard raise would be fine, 3-5x BB. There's no need for any more. It sounds like your main problem is continuing with the hand after the flop misses you. Continuation bets are good to make against one opponent. If the flop misses you, chances are it missed him as well, so nothing wrong with leading out. Continuation bets are not good against 5 opponents because it is too likely that the flop hit someone. There's really nothing wrong with check-folding against a handful of opponents, especially if you're in early position. And this is why you want to raise a reasonable amount... so you won't be so attached to the hand when the flop comes. Don't get carried away making huge raises. Remember that AK does need improvement to really be good.

[Wes ManTooth]

[ QUOTE ]
So I then up my raising to 8-10 X BB and still get 3 callers generally - yesterday did this and a raggedy flop of 4 7 9 rainbow has two all ins (I fold) one had Q4 suited and the other Q9 (sigh)

So after that debacle I decided to push all in (as I do with Aces and Kings) to see what happens - so far had 3 AK hands early doors and only one caller each time -
beat AJ /images/graemlins/smile.gif
lost to QJ suited (flush - I had the Ace of the suit)
and then lost to 10 6 suited /images/graemlins/confused.gif, I had the same suit /images/graemlins/cool.gif - he hit a FH /images/graemlins/shocked.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

I have not played $10 sngs on party for a while, and $5 sngs in a real long time. But calls like the ones you mention here I have rarely seen happening in $10 ones. Maybe its just happens in the $5sngs, maybe you should just play the $10 sngs.

Most of the time it is good to raise with AK preflop, but this depends on your table position, number of players left, level, stack size and other factors (if there is a raiser or reraiser before you).

[tigerite]

Heh, I've seen FAR worse at the $10s. Try a big stack calling my all in (for 10bb) on the bubble - he had been a total luckbox throughout, and the blinds were 25/50 4-handed, it was that stupid - with 23o.

[Damian UK]

Thanks - I see the point about a continuation bet against 5 opponents /images/graemlins/blush.gif

Which brings me back to another of my questions, why raise 3-5 X BB when I know I will get 5 or so callers ('only' 120 chips or so from a stack of 1500) miss the flop and then check/fold. Would I be better not raising at all and just limp and see what happens are my odds so much worse against 7 players than 5? (and I would have saved 5BB). Or better yet just push all in and only get one caller? I am in better or worse shape then?

This is the bit that the maths help but I can't figure out (I am not a stat man!!) in the long run is it better to raise 5XBB with 5 callers or limp against 7, or just push against 1 - given the chance of an A or K flopping or not (any stats fans out there?). I realise that AK suited is better but does it make a significant difference?

I appreciate its a small number of hands, but this has been happening for months and yesterday decided to try the 'push all in and see what happens' test.

Thanks for the replies

Damian

[tigerite]

Because you don't always miss the flop

[Damian UK]

To clarify - I play on Vic Chandlers and Sporting Odds (don't know if they are skins or not)

Starting chips for both are 1500 - with 10 min levels (unless speed/turbo).

All three were $10 tables.

I would say I am a decent amateur - have played for a year, seriously for about 4 months or so when I found this forum and started to read some books, so I have a fair grasp of position and raise/re-raise and am willing to laydown my AK to raise re-raise ALL in and another call etc before it gets to me at levels 1-3 (dependant on my stack).

Its just what to do when I am entering a pot I am confused with /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Thanks

Damian

[Damian UK]

Thanks tigerite - so I should raise because when I do hit it will be worth it and check fold if I miss against multiple opponenets.

Cheers

Damian

[wiggs73]

Well you want to raise to get value when the flop does hit you. I like a raise more than a push because I don't think you're going to get enough calls from hands you have dominated. You're making it too easy for hands like AQ, AJ, and AT to fold when you push all-in and these are the hands that you want to be playing against. I can't know for sure, but I'd think that the bulk of the calls you get from open-pushing are going to come from pocket pairs and if this is the case, then it's obviously a -EV move.

The t1500 starting stacks make it all the more reasonable to open with a small raise too. You have PLENTY of time to play poker. Don't worry so much about winning huge pots early, just pick up the ones that you can and try to take chips off people playing weaker aces when the flop hits both of you.

[Damian UK]

Thanks wiggs -from my experience people call with any Ax regardless of raise - indeed so do any two face cards etc - just wondering how much +ev AK is against those cards?
And yes u r correct - with 1500 chips and 10 min levels I can play a lot of poker - thanks

Cheers

Damian

[Wes ManTooth]

ahhh ok, with 1500 starting stacks raising with AK is standard and you will get callers with a wide range of hands. If it folds to you do not limp, and at this level even limping UTG hoping for a limp reraise is most likely not worth it. With this starting stack size you dont have to get to commited to an AK hand on a scary flop.

[Moonsugar]

First some thoughts on preflop play: No matter what hand I have if I raise first in I raise 3x BB. If I raise after limpers I raise 3x BB + (1BB per limper). If I raise a raiser a raise 2.5-3x his raise. If I am going to be really short postflop I will just go all in. I play EVERY hand this way. It makes it really easy to not give info to your opponents if you play every hand the same. Obviously there are some drawbacks but I would reccomend a similar system to any beginner so you don't worry about preflop action and then get to focus on postflop play and analyzing your opps. preflop bets.

Now, on AK specifically: Your game will get a lot better when you learn when to play AK more passively (multiway postflop) and when to play more aggressively (HU and preflop). When I stopped spewing chips into 4 people after I missed a flop my results got a lot better. Also, I may play AK differently than most posters in that I am perfectly willing to raise people all in preflop in early levels with it. In TPFAP Sklansky has a whole section dedicated to AK in NL tournies. It is a must read IMO. Basically he talks about how good it is to raise all in PF with AK and that the best time is when your raise is 2-5x the pot. I have had good success doing just that.

[mscott2374]

Another reason to make a standard raise is that an observant opponent will notice that you are playing AK differently and will make it easier to put you on a hand /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[AliasMrJones]

I typically raise slightly more in level 1 with AK than in subsequent levels, 4-5xBB rather than my more typical 3xBB. So, with AK and blinds of 10/15 I'd raise to 60 as a default or perhaps 75 with a couple limpers. Heads up a continuation bet is a good idea. With 2 callers it can work depending on the board. With 3+ callers, I typically wouldn't try it. You are raising AK for value -- it stands to be the best hand come showdown more often than its fair share -- so you don't have to take it down on the flop when you miss for raising AK preflop to be profitable.

[Ixnert]

At level 1, raise to at least 5x BB with anything you're going to bother raising with. You raise preflop (usually) to thin the field, and only secondarily to extract value, with most hands. At level 1 of a 5.50/11/22, 45 chips just won't do it.

Even when you hit the flop and have (typically) TPTK, that's a fragile hand against a whole flock of limpers. With one person or two left in the pot, you can bet much more confidently and know that you're less likely to be up against some bizarre two pair. (Understand, though, that the moment he calls your all-in re-raise on the K62 flop with K5, quantum mechanics guarantees that the river will be a 5.)

[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]
At level 1, raise to at least 5x BB with anything you're going to bother raising with. You raise preflop (usually) to thin the field, and only secondarily to extract value, with most hands. At level 1 of a 5.50/11/22, 45 chips just won't do it.

Even when you hit the flop and have (typically) TPTK, that's a fragile hand against a whole flock of limpers. With one person or two left in the pot, you can bet much more confidently and know that you're less likely to be up against some bizarre two pair. (Understand, though, that the moment he calls your all-in re-raise on the K62 flop with K5, quantum mechanics guarantees that the river will be a 5.)

[/ QUOTE ]

... and costs you the most chips when you miss. This is a leak.

[Uppercut]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't figure out how to play AK at low buy in tables, especially at level's 1 and 2.

I started off raising the standard 4XBB and end up with 5 callers - miss the flop and make a continuation bet for half or 2/3rds pot and get 3 callers etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

This right here is a major leak in your game. Stop making continuation bets with nothing into a field of 4-5 opponents. With that many people, somebody hit that flop and you are just going to lose more chips with your Ace high hand.

[Ixnert]

[ QUOTE ]

... and costs you the most chips when you miss. This is a leak.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how this is a leak unless you like five people coming along with your AK. I'll admit that AK has typically been a trouble hand for me, but that's more by virtue of doing stupid crap like continuation betting into a four person pot.

It was my understanding that you don't want to be playing AK in a multi-way pot if you can avoid it. 75 or 90 (in level 1) usually narrows the field while 45 rarely seems to. Not to mention that I usually have the best hand at this point (or at least no worse than a coinflip). What am I missing here?

(In a higher buyin, I would raise to 45 or 60 instead, because there's somewhat more respect for a reasonable-sized raise. Least amount that acheives the desired outcome and all.)