Andy Bloch on Calling Down With Bottom Pair

[PokrLikeItsProse]

Saw this interesting hand on Full Tilt Poker, with a follow-up discussion:

Folded to Andy Bloch, who button-raises and is three-bet by Dimo.

Flop: K/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif
Turn: 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
River: 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif

On each street, Dimo bets and Andy Bloch calls.

Dimo shows [A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif] (a pair of Sixes)
Andy Bloch shows [2/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/spade.gif] (two pair, Sixes and Twos)
Andy Bloch wins the pot ($82) with two pair, Sixes and Twos

The following informative discussion occurs (extraneous comments and other hands removed):

Dimo: i still cant get over that call
Dimo: i feel like he saw my hand
Dimo: i know
Dealer: Andy Bloch has 15 seconds left to act
Dimo: its just crazy that he called with a pair
of 2's
Andy Bloch: your play was strange
PencilGeek: I saw your AT too when I had
bottom pair...just so happened you
eventually caught. :-)
Andy Bloch: betting out on the flop
Andy Bloch: i figured you were either
making a move or had trips
Andy Bloch: and there was enough in the
pot to justify calling
igotskillz2: really ?
Dimo: there was no draws out there either, so
you couldnt put me on a draw
Andy Bloch: right, and i knew you knew that
dethoramous: dude get over it thats poker
bensen13 (Observer): yeah, he was getting
like 4 or 5 to 1, couldve been playing aq or
somethin
bensen13 (Observer): the call is definitely
justifiable
Andy Bloch: i needed to be right about 12%
of the time to call there
Andy Bloch: betting with AQ there would be
a mistake, but you see plenty of people do it,
making calling with as little as bottom pair
right
igotskillz2: good point Andy
Andy Bloch: i was getting over 7-1
bensen13 (Observer): even better
Andy Bloch: betting with AQ there would be
a mistake, but you see plenty of people do it,
making calling with as little as bottom pair
right
bensen13 (Observer): thats what im sayin
Dimo: lets go andy, me and you heads up for
a mil
bensen13 (Observer): people will bet their
big cards all the way down cause they dont
wanna lose their aggression
bensen13 (Observer): or call all the way
down with their ak and hit somethin on the
river, makes me sick
dethoramous: LOL
Andy Bloch: when i raise on the button, i
don't give much respect to a reraise
igotskillz2: yay , and stayed
igotskillz2: andy*
Dimo: you hit the 3 outer on me
bensen13 (Observer): cmon dimo, you had
a4, not that "monster" of a hand
RollingThndr (Observer): jeez...I hope you
can sleep tonight Dimo
Andy Bloch: dimo, most of the time we are
chopping
Dimo: this is true
Dimo: if you dont hit the flop though, you
fold

[Sykes]

So Andy is a big calling station. good for him.

Edit, besides: it's not that hard to call down on this board. If andy doesn't give Dimo credit for a K, he believes that dimo will bet on every street with A high and can call down. Plus this board is even scary. Board pairs on the the turn making bottom pair alot stronger and a rag falls on the river.

Not a genius play.

[Equal]

[ QUOTE ]
So Andy is a big calling station. good for him.

Edit, besides: it's not that hard to call down on this board. If andy doesn't give Dimo credit for a K, he believes that dimo will bet on every street with A high and can call down. Plus this board is even scary. Board pairs on the the turn making bottom pair alot stronger and a rag falls on the river.

Not a genius play.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are right, not a genius play calling down with bottom pair. Anyone can do that. But how about knowing *when* it's the right situation to call down with bottom pair?

[waffle]

andy had a good idea of the sb's 3betting range in this situation as well as which hands he will bet on this board. if you think this hand is interesting you probably don't have a good grasp on shorthanded play

[PokrLikeItsProse]

[ QUOTE ]
andy had a good idea of the sb's 3betting range in this situation as well as which hands he will bet on this board. if you think this hand is interesting you probably don't have a good grasp on shorthanded play

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I found it interesting that Andy was willing to explain in that great detail why he was doing what he was doing. I think that I personally have a pretty good grasp on when to call down with bottom pair since I get the same sort of whining (I just don't answer), just as I do when I find my opponent's betting makes it appropriate for me to call down sometimes when three overcards flop to my small pocket pair. It's a routine play for me, but I see posts here which makes me think it is not routine for a lot of people.

[waffle]

that's true, it is odd. if i had to guess, i'd say it's probably a part of andy's agreement w/ FTP that he is to be sociable with the other players.

[DMBFan23]

I think the most interesting part of this hand is the part where Andy says that Dimo would be incorrect to bet with AQ in that spot.

Andy's advocating a HPFAP style check the best 20% and worst 20% approach? hmm...

[waffle]

i think he means on the river?

[DMBFan23]

I think when he says he was getting "a little over 7-1", the only place that could be true was on the flop, plus he mentions "when you bet the flop I thought you were either making a move or had trips"

I'm not fully sure myself though

[DeathDonkey]

Andy sounds dumb in this. But his play is fine.

-DeathDonkey

[Shandrax]

I don't see the problem with this hand. It is a hand with 2 players, so 1 on 1 heads-up play is required.

Heads-up you usually bet an ace pre-flop and call down with bottom pair. When the flop came K-rags, Andy simply didn't put the other guy on a king. When the turn and the river came even more rags he knew that his hand was good and he always had the pot odds to go along with it.

It is the most natural hand in the world. No idea why the other guy couldn't get over it.

[MarkD]

So andy opens from the button and one of the blinds 3 bets. Andy hits a pair on the flop and calls down. There is nothing amazing about this hand, it is not that far away from being a standard hand.

This obviously happened at low limits and this is why the opponent in this hand was amazed - he lacks any understanding of blind steal/defense situations.

[sammy_g]

Andy's play looks normal. What I don't understand is his explaination.

He says he only needs to be right 12% of the time. Does he mean on the flop? He is only getting about 2:1 if he plans to call bets on every street. Of course, I think he is good often enough here.

I don't understand when he says Dimo's play was strange. Dimo's play looks pretty normal to me, although maybe the bet on the end is a little dubious.

I also don't understand why he thinks betting AQ is bad there unless he is talking about the river bet. Then I agree.

[FlyWf]

Board pairing on the turn makes bottom pair a lot stronger? Do you mean that it's now less likely that Dimo has a 6 and thus Andy can feel more confident that his 2 is good? It turns an Ace from a very good card for Andy into a very bad card.

[sammy_g]

[ QUOTE ]
Andy's advocating a HPFAP style check the best 20% and worst 20% approach? hmm...

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, but I don't think AQ falls into either group on this board.

[sammy_g]

[ QUOTE ]
Board pairing on the turn makes bottom pair a lot stronger?

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, it does mean that if he was ahead on the flop, he is still ahead on the turn. It's also less likely that villain has a pair.

But you're right that it gives villain more outs.

[SCfuji]

ive played andy heads up a couple times in those HU sit&gos. the man calls down everything if you just make him believe a couple times that you will be those missed overcard hands, then you can value bet the bejesus out of him.

[Shandrax]

I saw him calling down Gus Hansen on the WPT all the time. Basically if he thinks there is a good chance his opponent is bluffing he will call him down with a pair. At least that is the impression I got from watching him. Maybe it is inaccurate because lots of hands are missing in the coverage.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
andy had a good idea of the sb's 3betting range in this situation as well as which hands he will bet on this board. if you think this hand is interesting you probably don't have a good grasp on shorthanded play

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed. But then they way he talks about it afterwords it makes me think he doesnt have a good grasp on it either. That or he was just spewing garbage because hes smart and wouldnt bother explaining to someone why he really played the way he did.

[Equal]

It's tough to quickly and accurately get across your thoughts in a small chat box on limited time while playing poker as well.

[djack]

Daniel Negreanu has written before (in a cardplayer column, i think) that he calls Bloch a calling station and that he will call down anything that he thinks he might have odds for.

[Vex]

[ QUOTE ]
This obviously happened at low limits and this is why the opponent in this hand was amazed - he lacks any understanding of blind steal/defense situations.

[/ QUOTE ]

The thing that the dude was actually upset about was that Andy never raised.

[Shandrax]

[ QUOTE ]
Daniel Negreanu has written before (in a cardplayer column, i think) that he calls Bloch a calling station and that he will call down anything that he thinks he might have odds for.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since Bloch's approach is based on game theory and since he is a good enough scientist to get his math right, I trust his conclusions. Maybe this is the part where he plays the game perfectly and his leaks are in other areas...