10/20 6max: some thin raises - AJs

[Surfbullet]

Villain is a 55/30/1.75 over 40 hands. LAGy.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (7.75 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises...</font>

Surf

[Surfbullet]

bump for the morning crowd.

Surf

[billyjex]

are you calling a 3-bet?

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]
are you calling a 3-bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

Surf

[GetThere1Time]

I like the river raise but I really hate folding to a LAG for just one more bet. Isn't an AF of 1.75 and a VPIP of 55 pretty LAGgy? It's hard for him to have a worse hand but I don't think its outside the realm of possibility considering his PFR range.

[spydog]

Raising and folding to a 3-bet is the best play here. You make it pretty obvious you hold an ace. Villian will not attempt to bluff 3-bet this river with a worse hand because he knows you won't fold TP, so you are protected against a bluff. This means only a better hand will 3-bet you so it is safe to release.

[DeathDonkey]

I would call a 3 bet. He might think his worse ace got there.

-DeathDonkey

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
I would call a 3 bet. He might think his worse ace got there.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

How many worse aces raise UTG?

Krishan

[krishanleong]

I dislike the river raise in general. But depending on the degree of laggyness it can be okay.

Krishan

[smacksoup]

how do you know he 'knows' you won't fold TP? You WOULD be folding TP...

[TMFS9]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would call a 3 bet. He might think his worse ace got there.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

How many worse aces raise UTG?

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]


55/30/1.75, Even though only over 40 hands I think these stats indicate a wide range of raising hands regardless of position. But no i'm not calling a 3 bet.

[DeathDonkey]

With a PFR of 30 so far? Any ace IMO.

-DeathDonkey

[BottlesOf]

I think I just call this river. Maybe raise if he's really nuts, but only if I could safely call a 3-bet, and that guy would have to be really nuts.

I hate the river raise. The chances of winning an additional bet from hands like KQ, KK, and JJ, is easily offset by the possibility that you are reverse dominated or drawing dead against AK, AQ, AJ, KJ, TT, QQ, etc.

Im not particularly sure that I like the call on 4th street either, unless you have reason to believe that this opponent will c/r the preflop 3-bettor and lead all the way with hand like ace-rag, etc. Even if he's the type of guy to play AK like AA, you're still behind. I think on the turn at best you're drawing thin.

In my book, 40 hands and a read of "LAGgy" is not sufficient to make this play. I'd either need 40 hands and a read of "maniac", or 100 hands of "stupid LAG".

Results?

[wheelz]

He's double gutted on the turn, that's an easy call. I dont like raising the river either, because this guy is nuts, and I'll hate folding if he 3-bets. After you 3-bet preflop then he cr's the flop, bets the turn, and still bets the ace on the river... that line worries me. Sure he's not too good, but the ace still didn't seem to scare him at all, and that board is pretty coordinated

Youre right I missed that he picked up the double gutshot on the turn. Easy call of course.

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]
I would call a 3 bet. He might think his worse ace got there.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

The only worse aces that just got there all just hit 2 pair - he's lag, but not insane. I seriously doubt he'd checkraise me on the flop and lead the turn with A2.

His river bet means he's got a pair - he'll call a raise - a 3bet means he's not scared of the ace.

Surf

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I just call this river. Maybe raise if he's really nuts, but only if I could safely call a 3-bet, and that guy would have to be really nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this is an important consideration. I've been trying to eliminate raise-fold situations from my game at the 10/20 -people bluff way way too much and I like to get to showdown.

Along the way I seem to have started missing value-raises versus LAGs. I thought this was a spot where he would call the raise with a Q or T - a 3bet means I'm toast, though he will rarely be bluffing or raising a worse hand.

Surf

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]
I hate the river raise. The chances of winning an additional bet from hands like KQ, KK, and JJ, is easily offset by the possibility that you are reverse dominated or drawing dead against AK, AQ, AJ, KJ, TT, QQ, etc.


[/ QUOTE ]

Against a mostly reasonable opponent I would completely agree. However, this guy is very loose, and very aggressive. He would play any Q or T this way, and possibly even something like a small PP or OESD. the OESD got there, but the PP, Q, + T will call.

His hand range is far wider than you describe. I'd say(from preflop) Any ace, any 2 broadway, any PP, most connectors, suited crap like 79s, etc. This guy raises ALOT of hands.

Whether there is enough value here is another question entirely. I think being able to fold to a 3bet is important - I may rarely get bluff-3bet, but it will (hopefully?) be less than the bets I make when he calls with a worse hand. I like just calling and getting to showdown, however, because the bet-fold line on the river is bad for one's image, however correct.

[ QUOTE ]

Results?

[/ QUOTE ]

I raised, he 3bet, I folded.

Surf

[ QUOTE ]

Results?

I raised, he 3bet, I folded.

Surf

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the reasons I hate the raise/fold line is that it creates all sorts of metagame problems for you, in particlar: (1) LAGs trying to run you over, and (2) undermining your ability to semibluff tighter players.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
How many worse aces raise UTG?

[/ QUOTE ]
If we think the answer to that is "none" or "not many" then why did we three-bet preflop? If he three-bet AJ, he presumably believes that this guy is very capable of holding worse hands.

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How many worse aces raise UTG?

[/ QUOTE ]
If we think the answer to that is "none" or "not many" then why did we three-bet preflop? If he three-bet AJ, he presumably believes that this guy is very capable of holding worse hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly.

Surf

[Sporky]

the raise from utg pre flop, the c/r on the flop, and the follow-through bet on the river would lead me to just call the bet. i don't know where i am in the hand, and i don't want to give a super aggressive lag a chance to blow me off of a winner.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How many worse aces raise UTG?

[/ QUOTE ]
If we think the answer to that is "none" or "not many" then why did we three-bet preflop? If he three-bet AJ, he presumably believes that this guy is very capable of holding worse hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a T 8 and 6 on the board. That makes a difference.

Krishan

[sinfulslick18]

[ QUOTE ]
I like the river raise but I really hate folding to a LAG for just one more bet. Isn't an AF of 1.75 and a VPIP of 55 pretty LAGgy? It's hard for him to have a worse hand but I don't think its outside the realm of possibility considering his PFR range.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you know its hard for him to have a worse hand then why not fold?