56o in the BB. I call a raise. [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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GSummers

07-29-2005, 12:45 AM

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG raises, 2 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, 1 fold, Hero calls.

Flop: (10.40 SB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, Button calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.20 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP2 bets, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG folds, MP2 calls.

(Button went all in here)

River: (12.70 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks.

Final Pot: 12.70 BB

Normally I would fold this in a heartbeat, but I read an article in the magazine (I believe by Mason Malmuth) where he would play 9To in this situation if there were a couple more opponents besides the raiser for the multiway strength of the hand. This time I had 3 more amd good relative position so I called. What do you think?

Entity

07-29-2005, 12:49 AM

It's a bad call preflop. T9o is a lot closer and relies on a game in which the rake is lower and your relative ability is a lot greater.

Rob

GSummers

07-29-2005, 12:56 AM

Point taken. As far as relative ability goes: MP2 cold called with 67o, button raised the turn having JTo. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

GSummers

07-29-2005, 04:12 AM

I've made an interesting discovery while screwing around with pokerstove. Given some reasonable assumptions, 56o is a better hand (or at least has more equity) than 9To. Here's the stats vs. 4 random hands:

56o 15.9%
9To 22.5%

Of course the hands will not be random. In my situation I assume a reasonable raiser (raising top %10), and donk cold callers calling with %30 of their hands. The numbers:

56o %18.1
9To %13.8

This really surprised me at first. It's because when the board reads something like 553 and you have 56, it's almost certain you have the best hand. However, when the board comes TT3 and you have 9T, there are a lot of hands ahead of you like AT, KT, QT, JT. Another example is the board comes T9A vs. 56A. It's much better to have 56 in the second situation than T9 in the first.

When the cold callers are much tighter the the effect is even more pronounced in favor of 56o.

Perhaps a lot of people are already aware of this but it was news to me.

POKhER

07-29-2005, 05:12 AM

FAO GSUMMERS - http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2989562&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=&vc=#Post2989562

Can you post a reply as to what reads you had on me, and what made you call this hand?

Cheers.

GSummers

07-29-2005, 12:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
FAO GSUMMERS - http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2989562&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=&vc=#Post2989562

Can you post a reply as to what reads you had on me, and what made you call this hand?

Cheers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying I was CO in that hand? I looked through my 55 hands and I can't find that one. I wouldn't have called the flop either unless I had a mental lapse. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

07-29-2005, 12:39 PM

I advise following your heart . . . beat, and folding next time because I think it is a junk hand. I would also have folded the flop against the pre-flop raiser who is betting again, with low pair, low kicker. I like the check-raise on the turn, but would have bet the river especially in light of that check-raise.

Nice trips, though /images/graemlins/smile.gif Hope you won.

POKhER

07-29-2005, 12:58 PM

sorry mate was mid game and gave wrong link, heres a hand history instead.

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. UTG+2 posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 (poster) checks, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, Hero calls, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG folds, UTG+2 checks, MP1 bets, MP3 calls, Hero raises, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 3-bets, MP3 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (7 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
MP1 bets, Hero calls.

River: (9 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
MP1 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11 BB
You show 77 to win with a RunnerRunner

Question: What did you think i was holding?

aargh57

07-29-2005, 01:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Normally I would fold this in a heartbeat, but I read an article in the magazine (I believe by Mason Malmuth) where he would play 9To in this situation if there were a couple more opponents besides the raiser for the multiway strength of the hand. This time I had 3 more amd good relative position so I called. What do you think?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that you are looking for a reason to play more hands. I think that perhaps you should stick closer to your SSH chart until you get more experience. I realise the others at your tables are horrible but I don't think you (or I) should be deviating that much without a great deal of experience.

deception5

07-29-2005, 01:03 PM

I think he played this hand fine (the 77 vs 88 hand). Your flop raise could easily be for a free card here or with a hand like A6s. You showed no aggression after the flop so why would he think his hand wasn't good on the turn, especially with a gutshot to improve?

GSummers

07-29-2005, 01:16 PM

Yeah I remember that hand well. On the flop I had an overpair, so I bet out, 1 caller, you raised. I thought you might have a 6 but what I was most concerned about was the caller. The pot was getting large and my hand was extremely vulnerable to overcards so I reraised to try and get him to fold. I got lucky on the river.

Dave G.

07-29-2005, 01:18 PM

I don't like the call. Even if you were the SB and there wasn't a raise, this is not a profitable call to make until you have at least 5 limpers. Pretty easy fold.

As for T9o vs 65o... that's due to domination by AT, A9 and so forth. In the same sense, if you know your opponent has a hand like AK/AQ, you would be much better off playing JTs than KQ, KJ or QJ.

deception5

07-29-2005, 01:31 PM

I really don't see why this preflop call is bad. We're getting 9:1 with a connected/unlikely to be dominated hand. We're closing the action and have an easy muck on most boards with great check/raising potential if we do hit a hand. As a bonus we dominate a wheel draw.

GSummers

07-29-2005, 02:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like the call. Even if you were the SB and there wasn't a raise, this is not a profitable call to make until you have at least 5 limpers. Pretty easy fold.

As for T9o vs 65o... that's due to domination by AT, A9 and so forth. In the same sense, if you know your opponent has a hand like AK/AQ, you would be much better off playing JTs than KQ, KJ or QJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah you're also much more vulnerable to straights when you hit 2 pair. Interestingly, 56o also has more equity than KQo given my assumptions. Given tighter players 56o dips only marginally, KQo sinks further.

Marquis

07-29-2005, 03:14 PM

I think the preflop call is slightly +EV only because of your relative position. You have the virtual button.

Dave G.

07-30-2005, 01:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I really don't see why this preflop call is bad. We're getting 9:1 with a connected/unlikely to be dominated hand. We're closing the action and have an easy muck on most boards with great check/raising potential if we do hit a hand. As a bonus we dominate a wheel draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

As shown on the pokerstove website, you need 13:1 to call profitably for an unsuited connector, and that's including generous implied odds. The immediate odds are more like 18:1 - 19:1. We are way, way short of this.