One of those really unpleasant decisions

[Tilt]

PLO 100. Full ring, mix of stacks. Villain 1 has 220, I have about the same. He is a very good, tricky and aggressive player. Viallain 2 has 50 to start the hand and is a donkey on tilt.

I am UTG with A /images/graemlins/heart.gifA /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Villain in MP pots it, I think to like 4. Villain 2 reraises to 12. Three other callers I think, ...so, I reraise....well maybe not at exactly that point, I forget, but at some point Villain 2 is all in and Villain 1 calls and we both have 70 behind with a pot of like 380 to fight for.

And, so we are clear going into the hand, I am pretty sure I have the only pair of aces. These guys shove with all sorts of garbage

Flop (Pot 380, 1 player all in) is J /images/graemlins/club.gif6 /images/graemlins/club.gif2 /images/graemlins/club.gif

Your move? Any option with two players to fold and save $70? If not, do you check/call or bet it in?

[joewatch]

At this point, you have invested more than 1/2 your stack, so have to push it in. Pray for runner-runner AJ or that nobody has a club flush (very possible.)

[Acesover8s]

Push. Check-call is bad. A push has a small chance of getting a hand with outs to fold.

If you're going to lose to a flush, why play? The amount you have in the pot doesn't matter at all. Caro tells it like this: "Say you acquire a radiator cap signed by Bob Jones, a respected local mechanic, for 250,000. A year later, it is appraised at 50,000. Another collector offers you 125,000. You can say, "no way, I have 250 grand invested in this thing," or you can cut your losses."*

*loose paraphrasing

[bugstud]

[ QUOTE ]
If you're going to lose to a flush, why play? The amount you have in the pot doesn't matter at all. Caro tells it like this: "Say you acquire a radiator cap signed by Bob Jones, a respected local mechanic, for 250,000. A year later, it is appraised at 50,000. Another collector offers you 125,000. You can say, "no way, I have 250 grand invested in this thing," or you can cut your losses."*

*loose paraphrasing

[/ QUOTE ]

because when you check/fold to KQJT you lose a monitor and a computer, if not more, when you smash everything in sight.

[joewatch]

The reason why you push here is simple:

There is $150 in the main pot, $230 in the side pot.

You have $70 left to bet. If you put it all in, you are getting 450/70, or 6.4:1 on your money. You only need to win 13% of the time to break even. What are the odds that Villain has flopped a flush or some other hand that has you beat? A lot less than 87%. If he decides to fold, you will win that big side pot even if Villain2 beats you. Pushing is ++EV

[Acesover8s]

[ QUOTE ]
If you're going to lose to a flush, why play?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you assume someone has a flush? Weak tight thinking like this will break you quickly.

Besides, your argument can be carried further, I mean if you lose to a flush, don't you wish you had folded preflop? [censored], some days I have losing sessions, so why get out of bed?

[Tilt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you're going to lose to a flush, why play? The amount you have in the pot doesn't matter at all. Caro tells it like this: "Say you acquire a radiator cap signed by Bob Jones, a respected local mechanic, for 250,000. A year later, it is appraised at 50,000. Another collector offers you 125,000. You can say, "no way, I have 250 grand invested in this thing," or you can cut your losses."*

*loose paraphrasing

[/ QUOTE ]

because when you check/fold to KQJT you lose a monitor and a computer, if not more, when you smash everything in sight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but I did bust one of my kids toys that was lying nearby when I wound up pushing into the 3-7 club flush. Villain held T723. Double suited though, so that counts for something.

This was the first hand to put me on tilt in a long while.

[joewatch]

[ QUOTE ]
Villain held T723. Double suited though, so that counts for something.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, that is a great aces busting hand! LOL

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you assume someone has a flush? Weak tight thinking like this will break you quickly.

Besides, your argument can be carried further, I mean if you lose to a flush, don't you wish you had folded preflop? [censored], some days I have losing sessions, so why get out of bed?

[/ QUOTE ]

Acesover8s, you're using the SLippery Slope logical fallacy. Just because I say to fold the aces on the flop doesn't mean that you want to fold pre-flop, or not get out of beds. I'm simply thinking "What can I beat?" Top pair? No good player will call an all-in with anything less than a set. All the +EV in the world doesn't matter if yuo're beat.

[Acesover8s]

[ QUOTE ]
Acesover8s, you're using the SLippery Slope logical fallacy. Just because I say to fold the aces on the flop doesn't mean that you want to fold pre-flop, or not get out of beds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll grant you this. . .

[ QUOTE ]
I'm simply thinking "What can I beat?" Top pair? No good player will call an all-in with anything less than a set. All the +EV in the world doesn't matter if yuo're beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

However this is dead wrong basic fundamental poker. Following your argument would cause you to fold a flush draw against top pair getting 1000-1 on your money, a CLEARLY +EV situation where you are BEAT.

As a side note, a good player would call this all in with 2 pair in a heartbeat, and against certain opponents he may even call with one pair with 3 live kickers.

Furthermore, you don't want your allin called, and there are many hands that will fold that have outs against you, like the aforementioned one pair with 3 live kickers.

[ QUOTE ]
However this is dead wrong basic fundamental poker. Following your argument would cause you to fold a flush draw against top pair getting 1000-1 on your money, a CLEARLY +EV situation where you are BEAT.


[/ QUOTE ]

A flush draw is not the situation I was talking about. I meant that here, in this situation, all the positve EV in the world won't help if your oppponent does have, say, 2 pairs. All you can beat is the 1 pair/3 live kickers.

[Acesover8s]

[ QUOTE ]
A flush draw is not the situation I was talking about. I meant that here, in this situation, all the positve EV in the world won't help if your oppponent does have, say, 2 pairs. All you can beat is the 1 pair/3 live kickers.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're wrong again.

You still have outs against 2 pair. You have outs against a set. You even have a longshot against a made flush.

Your results oriented thinking will not make you successful in this game.