ATs or better, missing the flop [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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Boolean

07-28-2005, 06:50 PM

I was going over some hands in PokerTracker (I decided to buy it finally, and so far it's been great) and I noticed a trend of mine. I'll play hands like ATs, AJs, and AQs, and the flop will come with a high card higher than my kicker and maybe a backdoor flush/straight draw. The pot is sometimes so big however, that I call, I'm not sure if I'm playing these type of hands correctly. I can be drawing in some cases to just my backdoor draw due to being reverse dominated. Here are a few examples:

Hand 1:

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.25.
4 folds, Hero raises, CO (poster) calls, Button calls, 1 fold, BB 3-bets, Hero calls, CO calls, Button folds.

Open raise, call a 3-bet. This is standard, correct? BB is a sLA-A with about a 22% VPIP. He's raised AA and TT in the past before the flop, plus more hands that I haven't seen. I have 80 hands on him and he's only raising 6% of his hands.

Flop: (11.40 SB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
BB bets, Hero calls, CO raises, BB calls, Hero calls.

Just a backdoor straight draw, plus a backdoor flush draw. I'm getting 12:1. I don't like folding this hand, but I'm not even sure if my Ace outs are good. So if I give myself 1.5 outs for my Ace, and 3 outs total for my backdoor straight and flush draws, that gives me 4.5 total. I call, and get raised behind by the unknown CO. I call again. Are there any alternative ways of playing this? I could raise to buy my Ace outs from CO, but a 3-bet here would be disasterous.

Turn: (8.70 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, CO bets, BB calls, Hero calls.

Check/call with the flush draw, standard.

River: (11.70 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, CO bets, BB calls, Hero folds.

Check/fold with Ace high.

Final Pot: 13.70 BB

Hand 2:

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button 3-bets, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero caps, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, UTG+1 calls.

Button here is an LAP. He's raised hands like ATo, KK, QQ, and more that I haven't seen. His 3-bet standards I'm not sure of as I haven't seen them before in the past. I have a pretty strong hand, so I cap.

Flop: (21.40 SB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button calls, UTG+1 calls.

This time, I think I royally messed up. I have no draws besides a very weak straight draw worth about a half an out, and I can be drawing dead to my Ace outs. I hate folding this though because the flop is so big. If I give myself 1.5 outs for my aces, and .5 for my backdoor straight draw, I can make this call. However, with the Button still left to act, I can be raised from behind if he has a hand like AK. So I raise to protect my outs and it's very possible I can take a free turn.

Turn: (14.70 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, MP3 bets, Button folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

I now have a straight draw, so I check/call.

River: (17.70 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, MP3 bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero folds.

Check/fold unimproved.

Final Pot: 19.70 BB

Boolean

07-28-2005, 10:23 PM

bump..

gharp

07-28-2005, 11:31 PM

I wanted to respond to this the first time, but didn't have time to do it properly. I think these two are pretty tough flops to play well.

The first hand you're in trouble because the pf 3-better raises only 6% of his hands, so there's a good chance he's dominating you. So I'd discount your A (plus T) outs down to no more than one total. Your backdoor straight and flush outs are good though so maybe you've got something like 3.5-4 outs getting ~12:1.

I think you want to continue here, and the pot's big, but not so big that you can't protect your hand. So I'd raise.

In hand 2 the pot is ludicrous big, in large part because you capped preflop (which I think was a good play). You only need about 2 outs to continue, and I think you can give yourself that with your A/Q outs (you said the preflop 3-better was loose/aggressive) and your very backdoor straight. In this case, I'd just call though, because you can't protect your hand. On the turn, if an A or Q fell, I'd think about raising. If a total blank falls, I might want to raise too. When the T falls, I think you can just check/call and hope for the gutty to come in.

In both hands I think the river folds are fine. If you weren't overcalling, it might be worth a look -- but you know the callers in front of you have some kind of hand.

Like I said, I think these hands are toughies. I'm interested in seeing if anyone else will chime in here...

Redd

07-28-2005, 11:45 PM

Hand 1: IMO between the possibly good pair outs, flush, and gutshot you have odds to call the flop. I don't raise because there's not much cleaning up to do with one other player, and getting 3-bet would bite the big one. I'd also fold the river.

Hand 2: PF cap is debatable, if your reads said you were going to get the overlay that you got from the rest of the field, then I think there's value in it.

Again, the pot is freakin' huge so you have odds to stay. I call here but this time it's because in this pot the guys behind you will still be able to call almost anything even when faced with 2. Turn is also a straightforard call, and I also wouldn't overcall on the river.

topspin

07-28-2005, 11:46 PM

I like hand 1.

The preflop cap seems ill-advised in hand 2 given your read:

[ QUOTE ]
He's raised hands like ATo, KK, QQ, and more that I haven't seen. His 3-bet standards I'm not sure of as I haven't seen them before in the past.

[/ QUOTE ]

Two of those hands have hero's hand crushed, and that's just his raising standards. Assuming his 3-betting standards are even tighter, I don't think we're in good enough shape to raise.

Call the flop. You analyzed the texture well -- you don't really have much in the way of outs, but the pot is so bloated now that you have to call a single bet. Also, because the pot is big, you can't really protect anything with a raise -- you're offering 13:1 odds or better to everyone behind you, so they're pretty much going to call with any piece or any draw.

The next two streets are fine.

krishanleong

07-29-2005, 12:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
bump..

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand 1 looks okay.

Hand 2 just fold the flop.

Krishan

Aaron W.

07-29-2005, 01:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This time, I think I royally messed up. I have no draws besides a very weak straight draw worth about a half an out, and I can be drawing dead to my Ace outs. I hate folding this though because the flop is so big. If I give myself 1.5 outs for my aces, and .5 for my backdoor straight draw, I can make this call. However, with the Button still left to act, I can be raised from behind if he has a hand like AK. So I raise to protect my outs and it's very possible I can take a free turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Kumubou

07-29-2005, 01:34 AM

Hand 1: OK. Getting sammiched bites, but once the turn comes you must press on. I peel the flop because the pot is big and the turn card will really help me clarify if I go on to suck out or not. I doubt your Ts are any good, and your As probably are not either.

Hand 2: I actually like the cap but only because you have three suckers along for the ride. C'mon crubs!

WTF are you raising? What are you protecting? Squat. Just peel and see what comes. You get a gutshot in a garguantan pot, so you press your luck (and brick). It happens.

-K