Hand discussion on pot odds and EV

Hey...
I was hoping you guys (and gals) could help me on a question I need some help on a hand I played at a recent single table tournament at a home game this week....
This was a 10 person SNG and we were down to the last three players with payouts of 50% 30% 20%.
We are down to the last three players.
The big stack has been real agressive all night and has about 9-10K in chips. He is on the dealer button.
I have about 5200 in chips in the small blind and the other guy has about 4K in the big blind.
The blinds are at 600/1200.
The big stack, on the dealer button, folds his hand, I am in the small blind with Jd 6d and I call the big blind.
The big blind then checks.
(Don't tell me I shouldn't be playing this hand. I haven't seen a hand in the last 6-8 hands and I am getting blinded down pretty good. I needed to do something...I'm starving here!)
There is now 2400 in the pot, and the other player has 2800.
I now have 4K left.
The flop is Td 5h 5d. I now have a jack high flush draw.
I check and the other guy goes all-in.
I am pretty sure by the way he has been playing that it is either a steal or he has a decent hand (top pair) that he wants to protect.
I finally decide he has top pair, and I assume I probably have the overcard and so decide to call the 2800 and he turns over Tc 2s.
I was correct in my assumption.
The odds are:
pokenum -h Jd 6d - Tc 2s -- Td 5h 5d
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing Td 5d 5h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Jd 6d 422 42.63 568 57.37 0 0.00 0.426
2s Tc 568 57.37 422 42.63 0 0.00 0.574

So I am getting almost 3 to 1 on my money (2800 to call for a total pot of 8000) and I am only a slight dog at 42%.
I consider this to be a correct call.

However....
Today and yesterday I get berated by this guy that it was NOT the right call, and that I should have folded and saved my final 4K for an all in against the agressive big stack.
He believes my call here is negative EV.
I just don't see it....
Wouldn't getting almost 3 to 1 at 42% be better (with a pot of 8000) than 2 to 1 at something like 60% sometime later?
And on top of that we are getting blinded away pretty badly.
And we are already in the money, so we are only fighting about 10%.
And I really need the chips to be able to battle the big stack.

Did I do something wrong here?
Please let me know what you think.
Should I have saved my chips for a later time?
This seems like too much math for me to really figure out on my own so I was really hoping someone help me out on that.
Even if I'm wrong on the call, I would still like to know.

Thanks in adavance!
- Jason

[Slim Pickens]

First, I think you played the hand poorly.
1) Push or fold preflop with those blinds/stacks.
2) If you get to the flop, push the flop if you're going to call him anyway.

Second, that's not really a correct application of pot odds. You were correct in putting him on a range of hands to decide what to do, but you need to factor into your pot odds calculation the fraction of hands in his range where either your overcard or you flush draw is no good. There are also hands where you're actually ahead with your jack high.

As for whether it's better to call this or push a later hand, that's highly dependent on your folding equity against the BB. If he's loose and will call with a lot, I guess you have to take the current hand, but it's not good either way.

SlimP

yea.
I realize I really should have pushed early.
He was already showing weakness in the big blind.

But on my read, I was fairly positive he either had the top pair or a bluff. (I was showing some weakness too, so I'm sure he thought he could push me off my hand.)
He plays mainly limit poker and plays it buy the book.
If he had the 5, he would have checked behind me to give me a free card, and if he had an over pair or a high card to go with his ten (something like King Ten) then he would have never let me see the flop, without putting in a raise.

I was fairly positive I had the read correctly.
I'm just not sure I should have called his all-in bet on a draw.

What would you have calculated the pot odds at if you put his range of hands from being top pair, decent kicker, to an absolute total bluff?

Thanks,
Jason

[Slim Pickens]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just not sure I should have called his all-in bet on a draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well you did. You'll be a much better player if you think a few moves ahead.

[mcpherzen]

[ QUOTE ]

There is now 2400 in the pot, and the other player has 2800.
I now have 4K left.

[/ QUOTE ]

Before you do ANYTHING else, you need to understand pot odds. The pot on the flop is 2400 and your opponent pushes 2800 into it, making the pot 5200. So, you need to wager 2800 to win the 5200. 5200:2800 reduces to 1.86 to 1, so you actually aren't even getting 2-to-1 on your call, let alone 3-to-1. From purely a mathematical standpoint, you need to win this hand 35% of the time to make your call correct.

--Z

[ QUOTE ]

Before you do ANYTHING else, you need to understand pot odds. The pot on the flop is 2400 and your opponent pushes 2800 into it, making the pot 5200. So, you need to wager 2800 to win the 5200. 5200:2800 reduces to 1.86 to 1, so you actually aren't even getting 2-to-1 on your call, let alone 3-to-1. From purely a mathematical standpoint, you need to win this hand 35% of the time to make your call correct.


[/ QUOTE ]

Right. Sorry. That's what I mean. The math get's me confused sometimes....
I need 35% to make the call, and
my odds were 42% to win the pot.
So, would that mean I made the right call?

The question, though, isn't really about the call.
It's about if I should have folded (saved my 4K that I had left) and used it in a later hand against the big agressive stack?

Was this call really positive EV?

Thanks,
Jason

[Nicholasp27]

if this were a ring game then sure, u were getting odds to call there...go for it

but since this is a tourney and u can't rebuy, u can't just go by that

[ QUOTE ]
if this were a ring game then sure, u were getting odds to call there...go for it

but since this is a tourney and u can't rebuy, u can't just go by that

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea. I can see that. That's what makes it so hard to calculate if it was really positive EV.
But since the payouts are 50%/30%/20%, isn't it better to take the gamble to get more chips to compete for 1st, rather than fold and it still be three way action, and I'll then be the short stack?
Had I folded it would be:
9-10K (big stack)
5200 (the other guy)
4000 (me)

If I win the all-in, then it's
9-10K (big stack)
9200 (me)

If I win, then I have a much greater chance of winning it all, and if I lose I am only out in 3rd which doesn't pay much less that 2nd. I figured the gamble was worth it, for the chance to end up as heads-up for the big payout.
And remember, blinds are at 600/1200 and were going up in about 5 more minutes....

What do you think? positive EV or not?

Thanks,
Jason

[Ixnert]

Yes, once you find yourself in that position, it was +EV, ignoring that you probably shouldn't have found yourself there to begin with. The idea that you should be "saving your chips for a confrontation with the big stack" is moronic.

[BigDave]

1. I would push preflop
2. If I just completed and saw that flop, I would push and put the decision on him. If I decided I was going to call anyway when BB pushes, I will push first.

Your other option is to fold preflop and push whatever 2 cards you get when you are the button next hand.