Make a loose call here?

[jmgurgeh]

Just want to get some opinions on whether this might be worth a loose call. Table is about average preflop, a bit passive postflop. SB bets into a LOT of flops, but often takes it down without showing. This could be any part of the flop, a draw, or possibly even an unimproved A. Then again, my hand is crappy and probably needs improvement to win, and my position is crappy. My A and 2 outs are clean, and I also have the backdoor nut flush draw. A call here might see the turn get checked to me if SB doesn't have a K, but there's no way to tell right now.

Make a loose call for a small bet and fold the turn unimproved, or just fold?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (4 SB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero?

[gharp]

I think I'd fold here and it's not so much because of the SB but the 2 active players behind you. That's a flop that could've connected with a lot of playable hands. I wouldn't expect the single bet to take it down that often, even at the table you described.

[irishpint]

id usually fold in such a small pot. your A outs aren't too clean, since they put 3 broadways on the board. id rather not fight this battle.

[deception5]

This is not a hand to make a stand.

1.) There's 2 players to act behind you.
2.) You have the worst possible pair and could easily be beaten by any 3/4/5/6/7/8/9/T/Q on the turn.
3.) You could be behind already.
4.) The pot is tiny.
5.) You don't have a lot of outs.

[Fantam]

I think its close. With implied odds you might be able to justify calling, and if your read of the table is correct there is a fair chance that your call wont be raised behind you.

I agree with your description. A call here would definitely be loose.

[@bsolute_luck]

you don't have the implied odds to make this call especially with it possibly getting raise behind you or either opponent folding.

Outs: 1.5 BDFD, .5 goofy straight draw (Q,T), 1.5 Aces (they may not be clean but they're not worthless either), 2 outs for your 2s: 5.5 outs. need ~8:1. only getting at most 7:1 if both players behind you call and don't raise.

[Fantam]

Arent overcard outs counted as .5 each because of the risk of reverse domination or making your pair and losing to a flush or straight?

In this situation you would only be reverse dominated by AK or AJ (which is unlikely as no one raised), and would only lose to the straight if someone had QT.

So couldnt you count your A outs to 2 pair as almost a full 3?

That would give you close to 7 outs.

[xLukex]

I think you fellas may have oversighted that this is 6max.

I would say raise if you had a better read on villain, IE he has shown down some bad hands or releases on the turn to aggression. If you isolate him, you now have position and can get a cheap showdown.

I mean, yeah, this is still a fold, but with a slightly better read on SB, some may choose to raise this.

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
Arent overcard outs counted as .5 each because of the risk of reverse domination or making your pair and losing to a flush or straight?

[/ QUOTE ]

sounds like to me, you just made a case for discounting them and NOT counting them as full outs /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

anytime people weak-limp from LMP as these 2 players did, i don't rule out anything (except high pocket pairs- and sometimes not even them /images/graemlins/tongue.gif )

and even if you have 7 outs, you still need both players to call basically. 7 outs needs ~6.5:1 and if both call you're getting 7:1 (don't count you're own bet). too risky IMO for this itty bitty pot, 2 players behind, and poor position.

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you fellas may have oversighted that this is 6max.

I would say raise if you had a better read on villain, IE he has shown down some bad hands or releases on the turn to aggression. If you isolate him, you now have position and can get a cheap showdown.

I mean, yeah, this is still a fold, but with a slightly better read on SB, some may choose to raise this.

[/ QUOTE ]

....so because it's 6-max we should make more unprofitable calls? or because it's 6-max, suddenly people bet for no reason? i'm confused /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[jmgurgeh]

I don't know if I want to isolate the SB here. I can see reads that might make a raise not a bad play, but I don't think he's the right player to do this against. If he's betting without much to show for it, he'll check to me on the turn whether I raise or call him. If I raise, I may get checked to by forcing a superior hand to go passive, but that doesn't help much because he isn't folding if he has a K and I get no new information. A call here would let me determine what his turn action means (a bet there probably means a K unless he gets there on a semibluffed FD).

I think discounting my A outs to .5 each may be overly conservative. It's good to do that with overcards in certain situations, but since I've already paired my kicker that applies much less here. Also consider that in the 6-max in this situation, I may have to best hand even if it is unlikely. If I don't though, I may get raised behind me by any K. That would suck.

So in my mind it was call and see if I improve on the turn, or fold, given the texture of the game and the dynamics of the board, with a call being a bit of a stretch. I'll see if anyone has something to add and post results a little later today.

[jmgurgeh]

[ QUOTE ]
because it's 6-max, suddenly people bet for no reason?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, because it's Party people bet for no reason. This being 6-max increases the chances of that happening, as far as I've seen.

Or rather, maybe I should say people bet for stupid reasons. Gutshots? Bet. One over? Bet. Runner straight draw? Still a possible bet. Bottom pair? Often bet at 6-max.

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
because it's 6-max, suddenly people bet for no reason?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, because it's Party people bet for no reason. This being 6-max increases the chances of that happening, as far as I've seen.

Or rather, maybe I should say people bet for stupid reasons. Gutshots? Bet. One over? Bet. Runner straight draw? Still a possible bet. Bottom pair? Often bet at 6-max.

[/ QUOTE ]

ah. well that clears things up then. i don't play 6-max, that's why i was wondering /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[jmgurgeh]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I'd fold here and it's not so much because of the SB but the 2 active players behind you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Those two weren't a concern at the time, because as I said, they were on the passive side postflop. However:

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (4 SB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, MP calls, CO calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, CO calls, SB calls.

River: (9.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, MP checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

Results:
SB has 8s Ks (one pair, kings).
MP has 8c Kc (one pair, kings).
CO has As 4s (one pair, aces).
Outcome: CO wins 9.50 BB.

So I wasn't sure if I was just being results-oriented or if a loose call here would be okay since it's 6-max. Glad to see mostly everyone believes this to be a fold, or a very marginal call at best.