Review: Hand 101-- leak

[baronzeus]

HAND 101 :
Preflop: Hero is BB with 8, 7.
4 folds, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, SB raises, Hero calls, MP3 calls, Button calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 4, 6, 3 (4 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, MP3 folds, Button calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 7 (3 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, SB folds, Hero calls.

River: (12.50 BB) 4 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.


This is a clear river fold, unless button is a complete maniac, in which case you can call. You are never good 1 in 13.5 here.

[Marquis]

Preflop stinks too. Horrible relative position.

Edit: That is 87o IIRC.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop stinks too. Horrible relative position.

Edit: That is 87o IIRC.

[/ QUOTE ]

Leak #2.

Edit: although this leak isn't nearly as bad as calling that river.

Thanks for pointing out the river call. I don't really have any good justification for that -- at the time, I had vague notions of the "don't fold big pots/1 bet" principle, but in retrospect with this coordinated board and the turn action staying in with TPMK at showdown was a definite no-no /images/graemlins/blush.gif

Preflop is meh IMHO. We're getting 7:1, our hand is not subject to domination, and we're in excellent position to protect if we flop a hand. I'm open to arguments about why calling here is bad though.

I thought people might comment a bit about the turn raise, though. Ignoring our knowledge that Button 3-bets behind us, who likes raising here? I'm hoping to fold out button and will take a free showdown if SB calls. I'm not much worried about SB 3-betting us on this scary board.

[baronzeus]

The two options you have are raising and calling.

If you raise, a 3bet means you are dead you can fold the river for one bet. It doesn't give SB a chance to catch up and defines your hand. This costs you 3 bets in a losing effort.

The other alternative is calling. If you call, and no one raises behind you, probably have the best hand, but you are allowing SB to catch up here. It's detrimental, but since SB is probably drawing to 6 outs, it's not too big a deal. You can call the river, and probably take down the pot UI. When it's raised behind you, you fold UI, and it only costs you 2 bets to lose.

I like calling better. Your hand is marginal at best, and the rest of the field will never fold a better hand. Even 2 pair will call to try to fill up.


A note about preflop, the reason I don't like this is because of your relative position to the raiser. Unless you hit a good flop, you have to fold to SBs bet 100% of the time, especially with aggressive opponents behind you. This makes playing single mid-pair hands very tricky, because if it's raised after you call SBs bet, you are putting 1BBs into probably a 7BB pot, and you might be drawing slim. If it was 87s or even 54s, it would be an easy call because of the huge implied odds of winning with your straight or your flush.

Edit: Your call on the flop was fine, since you have an estimated 5-7 outs.

Sorry for all the rambling.

[meep_42]

I also just call the turn.
PF is fine, in my book.

-d

[detruncate]

I'd fold pf, but it's probably marginal enough that I don't think calling can be a big mistake. Especially if your relative position factored into the decision.

The turn bet is great. Non straights are going to be very hard pressed to call, and we might just push SB off an overpair. We also get a free showdown a not insignificant % of the time.

Calling the 3-bet is close but probably -EV given that you most often have 3 outs -- the 8 in your hand is critical, as there's no way you have odds to draw to a split. Villain would have to go to war on the river for you to make up your ~3 BB. This obviously ignores your chances of being ahead + possibly finding another out if villain is prone to big bluffs or over playing.

You can't make river calls like this if you're going to raise the turn. With the possible exception of calling a 3-bet, the raise should be the last chips you put into the pot UI.