Commerce 9/18 #1: T5o

[jason_t]

First hand at table. No previous read on villain.

Preflop: I am BB with T5o
UTG limps, folded to me and I check.

Flop: T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif
I check, he bets, I call.

Turn: Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif
I check, he bets, I raise, he calls.

River: 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif
I....

[risen]

You're going to show down, he isn't raising you, and your hand may be second best. All of these things point to leading the river and calling if you get popped. Question, if you have no read on the villain, why are you setting up this turn checkraise instead of leading the flop with this vulnerable holding? I do like that you followed through on your plan despite the overcard, but with T5, I'd rather try taking it down on the flop either by leading or checkraising,

[Piiop]

I'd bet, though I think how you got there is more interesting.

Usually I would bet the flop here. If I knew my opponent to bet a lot in this situation, I would probably check-raise.

I don't like the check-call, check-raise line very much.

[Evan]

Not betting this flop is pretty bad imo. But as long as you're playing it this way I don't see how you can have a question on the river decision.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
Not betting this flop is pretty bad imo. But as long as you're playing it this way I don't see how you can have a question on the river decision.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you think he calls the turn check/raise with that I want calling on the river?

[bugstud]

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[ QUOTE ]
Not betting this flop is pretty bad imo. But as long as you're playing it this way I don't see how you can have a question on the river decision.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you think he calls the turn check/raise with that I want calling on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

ace high, 98, a smaller pp, 7, 4

[Evan]

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Not betting this flop is pretty bad imo. But as long as you're playing it this way I don't see how you can have a question on the river decision.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you think he calls the turn check/raise with that I want calling on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why did you check raise the turn?

[billyjex]

Don't understand why you didn't just bet the flop, or at the least C/R the flop.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't understand why you didn't just bet the flop, or at the least C/R the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't there something wrong with this line? Is it because of the risk of having the turn checked through?

[brettbrettr]

I'd bet the river. I'd have also bet the flop.

[W. Deranged]

Jason--

1. I think with this sort of hand you need to get more in on the flop. I don't mind your line with a hand like KJ on a J high board, where you have only two ranks of overcards to worry about, but here there are just too many turn cards you don't want to see. Waiting for them to show up before proceeding with your aggression will mean: a) you are less likely to be getting money in when ahead; b) the hand become significantly harder to play. This hand is a great example of these phenomena.

2. Since most reasonably aggressive players will take a shot at the flop here against only the big blind, I personally think a flop check-raise is the best play, on a sheer value basis.

3. Waiting to check-raise the turn is really dangerous here, as missing bets on a big bet street is bad, as is giving your opponent (who likely has at least one overcard) a free shot to beat you.

4. Bet the river here unless you have a specific read that villain is more likely to bluff this river than to call a bet behind. Without a read, as in this case, a bet should be right, particularly given the way the hand has been set up.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don't understand why you didn't just bet the flop, or at the least C/R the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't there something wrong with this line? Is it because of the risk of having the turn checked through?

[/ QUOTE ]

To clarify I meant "Is" and I meant the line that I took.

[sfer]

Some hands I would need to bet a HU flop from the BB on a T74 rainbow board.

Obvious: Tx, 7x, 4x

Not quite as obvious but obvious nonetheless: 89/56/68, Ax

Something to consider: almost every other combination of cards

[brettbrettr]

This is confusing. I have no idea what is and isn't what you're trying to say. You should be banned.

[callmedonnie]

[ QUOTE ]
Question, if you have no read on the villain, why are you setting up this turn checkraise instead of leading the flop with this vulnerable holding?

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely agree. Against unknown I play this hand very straight forward.

[Sarge85]

Continue with your "bluff" of the Queen and bet the river.

Even if he decides to "look you up", you'll see a lot of 7's and 4's here IMO.

(I think most times i just lead this flop though HU)

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[BigEndian]

Why CR the turn? I would prefer check calling the whole way and jamming the end.

- Jim

[shant]

Live play sucks, they have 10/20 online.

Also, bet the flop.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
Live play sucks

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, live play doesn't suck. The girl I am going to marry is a brush at the mid-limit terrace at the Commerce.

[istewart]

But she plays $2k/4k right?

http://images.usatoday.com/life/_photos/2003/2003-10/01-poker-inside.jpg

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
But she plays $2k/4k right?

http://images.usatoday.com/life/_photos/2003/2003-10/01-poker-inside.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

I love her too. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Michael Davis]

"The girl I am going to marry is a brush at the mid-limit terrace at the Commerce."

She's married.

-Michael

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
"The girl I am going to marry is a brush at the mid-limit terrace at the Commerce."

She's married.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm talking about Visa. Are you saying she is married? Say it ain't so!

[shant]

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I'm talking about Visa. Are you saying she is married? Say it ain't so!

[/ QUOTE ]
Asian chick?

[jason_t]

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[ QUOTE ]
I'm talking about Visa. Are you saying she is married? Say it ain't so!

[/ QUOTE ]
Asian chick?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. I love her. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm talking about Visa. Are you saying she is married? Say it ain't so!

[/ QUOTE ]
Asian chick?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. I love her. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
The cocktail waitress MILFy-type chick with the big breasts is better.

[Michael Davis]

"I'm talking about Visa."

Of course I knew this.

Anyways, I'm almost positive she has a wedding ring, but I could be wrong. She's adorable. And obedient.

-Michael

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm talking about Visa. Are you saying she is married? Say it ain't so!

[/ QUOTE ]
Asian chick?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. I love her. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
The cocktail waitress MILFy-type chick with the big breasts is better.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. It's not close.

Visa's name is Visa. How awesome is that? Visa, don't go home without her. She's medium-height, slender, has beautiful hair and a very innocent look about her and she's always smiling. She is so adorable. /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[meep_42]

Too bad she's not a stripper, eh? :P

-d

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
"I'm talking about Visa."

Of course I knew this.

Anyways, I'm almost positive she has a wedding ring, but I could be wrong. She's adorable. And obedient.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

This is really really sad. My life is so bad.

[meep_42]

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This is really really sad. My life is so bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you crying?

-d

[toss]

I'm betting then folding. Looks like either a T with a higher kicker or a pocket pair. Maybe even something like 98 or KJ.

[shant]

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[ QUOTE ]
This is really really sad. My life is so bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you crying?

-d

[/ QUOTE ]
With tears?

[jason_t]

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[ QUOTE ]
This is really really sad. My life is so bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you crying?

-d

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been crying for an hour.

[brettbrettr]

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[ QUOTE ]
This is really really sad. My life is so bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you crying?

-d

[/ QUOTE ]
With tears?

[/ QUOTE ]

nh.

[meep_42]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is really really sad. My life is so bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you crying?

-d

[/ QUOTE ]
With tears?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice alley-oop. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

-d

[lil']

If you know your opponent to be an aggressive type who will bluff a lot, it can be OK to check a top pair in this spot. When I first start out at a table, however, I play straightforwardly until I get the feel.

Do you really want to check this twice? Checking again on the turn is risky because a) your hand isn't very strong and b) a lot of players, after seeing an initial bluff failed, will check the turn, giving them a free shot to draw out on you. Plus, it's fun to confuse people with a turn bet from nowhere, which leads to mistakes.

Just something to think about.

[27offsooot]

If you're checking the flop, u should be c/ring. But this depends on reads. Bet the flop without them.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
Some hands I would need to bet a HU flop from the BB on a T74 rainbow board.

Obvious: Tx, 7x, 4x

[/ QUOTE ]

Dave,

When you get raised with these hands, what's your line from then on? Obviously it might be different for each of these three.

[ QUOTE ]

Not quite as obvious but obvious nonetheless: 89/56/68, Ax

Something to consider: almost every other combination of cards

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain the 89/56/68/Ax? Why are those obvious bets?

Also, all other combos??

Thanks,
gm

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
Can you explain the 89/56/68/Ax? Why are those obvious bets?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't want to speak for Dave, but I think you can bet the open-ended hands because of the combination of FE and you have lots of outs to improve, including the pair outs. I'm not sure about Ax.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
"The girl I am going to marry is a brush at the mid-limit terrace at the Commerce."

She's married.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

A guy who humps strippers for free can obviously work around a wedding ring. Duh.

[meep_42]

Ax is good on that board a lot. That plus FE here or on the turn make it a profitable bet much of the time.

-d

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
When you get raised with these hands, what's your line from then on? Obviously it might be different for each of these three.

[/ QUOTE ]

The hands with outs or showdown value (excluding A-high) I would call and improve or call and showdown, unless the board goes to pot.

The hands with nothing I might call the flop and fold the turn or just fold right there, but the intention is to <shuffle> <shuffle> <scowl> <muck>.

Generally, I think that's a nothing flop and a small pot and I'll win enough with a single bet since I just sat down.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]

but the intention is to <shuffle> <shuffle> <scowl> <muck>.


[/ QUOTE ]

you forgot <show your cards to your neighbor with a look of outrage and disgust>.

everything else you got just right.

thanks,
gm

[W. Deranged]

John. Grossbart.

It tolls for thee...

[ShawnHoo]

Stop fantasizing about casino employees and bet the river. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[PITTM]

christ, who is the chick in your avatar anyways? what a ladies man.

rj

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When you get raised with these hands, what's your line from then on? Obviously it might be different for each of these three.

[/ QUOTE ]

The hands with outs or showdown value (excluding A-high) I would call and improve or call and showdown, unless the board goes to pot.

The hands with nothing I might call the flop and fold the turn or just fold right there, but the intention is to <shuffle> <shuffle> <scowl> <muck>.

Generally, I think that's a nothing flop and a small pot and I'll win enough with a single bet since I just sat down.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty much betting any two cards here also. With my better hands I like betting the flop and checkraising the turn.

[jason_t]

First hand at table. No previous read on villain.

Preflop: I am BB with T5o
UTG limps, folded to me and I check.

Flop: T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif
I check, he bets, I call.

Turn: Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif
I check, he bets, I raise, he calls.

River: 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif
I bet, he calls.

I table my hand and he proceeds to turn his cards over and I thought "damn, my hand is no good." He shows 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif.