AQo vs way too big a field, man this sucks.

[callmedonnie]

SB is a fish, other than that new table and no reads. Hero is MP2 w/ A /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

UTG calls, MP1 calls, Hero raises, MP3 calls, LP calls, CO calls, button folds, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Pot is 8 big bets, eight handed at flop.

Flop: 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

SB and BB check, UTG bets, MP1 calls, Hero raises, LP calls, CO 3 bets, blinds fold, UTG calls, MP1 folds, Hero calls, LP calls.

Pot is 14.5 Big bets, four players.

Turn: Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif

UTG checks, Hero checks, LP checks, CO bets, UTG calls, Hero raises, LP folds, CO calls, UTG folds.

Pot is 19.5 Big bets, two players.

River: 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Hero ?

[AVF2k1]

I would go for a check call. It's perhaps week, I know. But with bad players you have a tendency to run in to some what interesting holdings... So you might be up against another seven, possibly with a six for a full house on the river. Or you might run in to a 66. But then again you may find your self up against 62s.

And the pot is to big to fold for one bet on the river. You only have to wing 5% of the times for it to be a profitable call.

/Oscar

[Xiphoid]

I would play the turn straightforward and bet out instead of check-raising. You definitely don't want to wiff and give someone a free card to their draw or two-pair.

Whatever is done on the turn, you need to be seeing a showdown on the river with the pot that big. I'm really split between betting out or check/calling. The pot is already very large and you don't want to get raised.

I'm not sure what to do. However if you check, I can't see a weaker hand bluffing into after all the strength you've shown. I say bet/call.

[Nick C]

I'm responding blind.

I don't like the flop raise very much. What are you hoping to accomplish? (Versus seven players, it's not very likely you have the best hand, and I don't think you'll fold anything out that you'd like to.)

I think the turn is okay, but I might just lead, fearing CO's flop 3-bet. (I'm worried he'll 3-bet my checkraise with his 66 or 76, but maybe I'm just paranoid right now.)

On the river, I don't know. I'm not willing to bet-fold in a pot this big versus an unknown, but I think CO may just have an overpair (edit: an overpair to the flop, I mean, like 88-JJ). A7 is the most likely trips hand, and there are only six available combinations of that.

I think I would bet-call. Check-calling seems all right to me too, though. I'm not sure.

Edit: The main thing is, I wouldn't do anything on the river that involved folding.

[brettbrettr]

The flop raise seems pointless to me, especially given the pre-flop action. You had 3 guys call two cold pre-flop and you think you're going to be able to get them to fold a pair or a draw?

I think I just lead the turn, though I don't have that much trouble with the check-raise. Not many players are 3-betting this flop to buy a free card and clearing the field is nice.

As for the river, that card sucked. I guess you could check-call but it means hands like 99 or TT might check behind. I think I'd rather bet this.

Reads would help immensely.

[W. Deranged]

I agree with the primary sentiments:

1. There is no reason to raise the flop. I think people raise unimproved overcards on the flop way too often simply because they are the pre-flop raiser. Your opponents, particularly in a multiway pot, are not going to be betting into you with hands that you are beating; there are draws here, but not many. Raising opens yourself up to a three-bet or worse, and paying three or more bets here to see the turn pretty much sucks, even if the pot is big.

2. You should bet the turn, even if it tips your hand and yuo think a check-raise might work. Letting the turn get checked through is such a disaster that you really need to make sure that doesn't happen. Late position three-bettor could have been raising the unlikely draw. Hands like 10 10 and 99 may become afraid to bet. Your donk bet may seem fishy to the LP player who may raise anyway, which you'd like.

4. Just don't fold the river, whatever you do. Please.

[callmedonnie]

[ QUOTE ]
But then again you may find your self up against 62s.

And the pot is to big to fold for one bet on the river. You only have to wing 5% of the times for it to be a profitable call.

/Oscar

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, I never even considered folding this river. I ended check/calling, and beautifully, saw his 62suited and MHIG.

At the time I thought the flop raise was good. The pot was so big I was calling, I figured for another small bet I might push out some of the junk. Anyway, I understand why you guys don't like it. The turn check raise also seemed like a good idea. I really expected a bet from CO and didn't see him checking. I didn't put him on draw, as all the other callers seemed to have that, making it much less likely he had it too.

[Malcom Reynolds]

I agree with the sentiment that the flop raise is no good, but against some opponents it is fine. If you expect to both buy the button and get a free card very often in this large pot, this is a good play. It seems however your opponents are too loose for this play to be profitable.

[ropey]

[ QUOTE ]
There is no reason to raise the flop. I think people raise unimproved overcards on the flop way too often simply because they are the pre-flop raiser.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying that I am an advocate of raising the flop here...but one could certainly argue that there is a point. If you believe you can narrow the field with a raise, you substantially improve your chances of winning the hand. Your top pair, when you hit it, has a lot better chance of winning against smaller fields.

Now some comments of my own on the hand:

I would consider folding to a 3-bet on the flop. This of course is opponenet dependent. When you are 3-bet on the flop, often you will already be up against two pair, or a set. So even when you pull your A or Q, you will still be behind.

-ropey

[W. Deranged]

I do not like this argument.

I am a strong advocate of raising certain overcards; namely, those that you stand to increase your chance of winning if you hit your card.

If you look in this week's Jake The Snake digest, I put up a whole crazy poll about a bunch of weak overcard hands where I think raising is a viable option.

Here I don't think it helps. We are in a big field and may get three bet if we raise. But, most importantly, are outs are pretty clean . If we hit an A or Q we are much heavier favorites to win than if our cards were QJ or something like that. Given, we may encourage others out who have small pairs and may redraw against us or may dirty our A or Q outs, but this is not nearly as big a consideration as it would be if our overcards were weaker.

Also, note that by not raising on the flop, we actually increase our ability to protect our hand on the turn when we do hit it there. If we raise and it is checked to us on the turn after we hit an A or Q, we may only get one bet in. If the bettor in front of us instead continues to bet the turn, we may get a raise in, which has excellent value in terms of hand protection.

So, my basic point is that I much prefer to raise weak overcards on the flop (given that you have some clear reason to continue being part of the hand... such as combo draws) than strong ones, because strong ones don't need the tactical help.

Tactical raises have a price, and it is important to recognize that you often stand to gain more from them in situations where you are weaker than when you are stronger.


As for folding to a flop three-bet, that is very bad. Putting two bets in on the flop and folding a third get a trillion to one is bad poker. Sure, we may be drawing thin, but we will have live outs often enough that folding would be quite weak in my opinion.

[ropey]

[ QUOTE ]
As for folding to a flop three-bet, that is very bad. Putting two bets in on the flop and folding a third get a trillion to one is bad poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I said this is player dependent. But calling a bet on the flop when you couldn't pick a card out of the deck to give yourself the best hand is bad poker.

[ QUOTE ]
I am a strong advocate of raising certain overcards; namely, those that you stand to increase your chance of winning if you hit your card.


[/ QUOTE ]
Anytime you can reduce a field of 8 by several opponents will increase your chances of winning. Let us not forget that with a raise, we will often see both the turn and river. This also increases your chances of winning.

-ropey

[brettbrettr]

Ropey,

What about the pre-flop and flop action suggests to you that you're narrowing this field and/or getting free cards?

Your first thought is weak-tight.

brett

[W. Deranged]

As a follow-up:

Generally, it is much better to save the "raise and fold to a three-bet" thinking to the turn when:

1. The size of the bets double
2. You have fewer future opportunities to improve your hand.
1+2=3. You have lower implied odds.
4. The hands of your opponents are more clearly defined.

[callmedonnie]

Thanks for all the feedback on this one. With better position the flop raise would make sense as it might buy the button. Here buying the button was virtually impossible. Forcing out players to strengthen my draw was a consideration also. As noted, at this table this wasn't going to work but also as noted, I was new to the table.

The turn check raise I'm alright with. One player put a single bet in and folded to the raise, and I got HU for river. Luckily the river saved my from bottom two pair.

[jskills]

Check / call the river. I'd be surprised if CO had a 7 in his hand, but then again what else was he betting at on the flop?

[BWebb]

Don't like the flop raise. You are not going to clean up your overcard outs because you are either reverse dominated or they are good already. Getting 18-1, a call is justified on your 2.5 outer.

Turn, a checkraise won't really limit the field, so I bet.

[ropey]

[ QUOTE ]
What about the pre-flop and flop action suggests to you that you're narrowing this field and/or getting free cards?

[/ QUOTE ]

Make no mistake, I would not have played the hand this way...but was merely suggesting that there are times when this type of raise is a good play. In a wild and loose game, you are usually just throwing away a small bet by playing the hand this way.

-ropey

[brettbrettr]

I agree. But as a point of procedure you'll find numerous posts where raising this flop *is* the right move. I think its best to resrtrict our comments in a given thread to the situation at hand or the posts get sidetracked too easily and some people can't distinguish the good advice in this situation from the advice of what to do in a different one.