KK hand, FOUR freaking cold-callers... [Archive]

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Eeegah

07-28-2005, 12:45 AM

...and of course an A on the flop. The table...come on, it's six handed to the flop and four people cold called, what do you think this table's like?

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Button calls, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG calls.

Flop: (13 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (6 players)
SB checks, UTG bets, Hero...

Okay, one cold caller and I'd probably raise this. Two callers, eh I dunno. I have FOUR freaking cold callers here, AND the small blind, AND a limper in front. Oh yeah, and that limper likes his hand enough to bet into me. I know I get accused of being weak tight in a lot of spots but honestly, do I really have a reason to see the turn here?

hemstock

07-28-2005, 12:51 AM

I'd raise and fold to a reraise or fold UI on the turn. Every single draw is out there. A K /images/graemlins/heart.gif completes the flush draw. So you have 1 real out. That's really weak assuming someone has an A already and you're behind.

GrunchCan

07-28-2005, 01:00 AM

I raise. If I get the button, I'll try to show this hand down for 1 more BB by checking the turn UI.

This could be a bad line, though. I'm posting it to see what other people think.

Aaron W.

07-28-2005, 01:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
...and of course an A on the flop. The table...come on, it's six handed to the flop and four people cold called, what do you think this table's like?

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Button calls, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG calls.

Flop: (13 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (6 players)
SB checks, UTG bets, Hero...

Okay, one cold caller and I'd probably raise this. Two callers, eh I dunno. I have FOUR freaking cold callers here, AND the small blind, AND a limper in front. Oh yeah, and that limper likes his hand enough to bet into me. I know I get accused of being weak tight in a lot of spots but honestly, do I really have a reason to see the turn here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Any reads on cold-donking donks? Are they playing almost any two, or do they show some level of discernment in their calls? Have they cold-donked often in the past?

If the table is generally passive, I think you can just call this flop because you're almost getting odds (with implied) to chase a 2-outer. Yes, I see the flush draw, but you make a lot of money when you hit your pure miracle, and you may make back some money when you draw out 22% of the time against the flush when it happens to be there (you've got 10 outs to beat him, you know).

If the table is aggressive, I can let it hit the muck. You raised for value and the flop came down bad. The preflop equity you had is almost certainly gone and you've got aggressive players waiting to drive you out of the pot after you call (or raise).

Bodhi

07-28-2005, 02:04 AM

You complain about cold-callers like it's a bad thing.

I raise the flop to protect my hand.

07-28-2005, 02:05 AM

I'd have to go with the reads. Unless they're calling every hand, chances are with that many people cold calling, they aren't going to have complete junk. I'd throw this down too, unless I have specific reads on UTG saying he doesn't have an ace and/or isn't capable of bluffing, and specific reads on players behind suggesting they don't have complete junk.

Against random players I'd throw this down. Too many people at .25/.50 will not only play ace-rag but call it down to the river whether they hit it or not. Plus that flush draw is right there.

But, the pot is pretty large. What does raising accomplish? It won't fold better hands, but maybe weak draws will call? I don't know, I don't see a raise but maybe someone can explain it to me.

Bodhi

07-28-2005, 02:07 AM

Giving a free card on the turn is not good. Why give someone infinite implied odds to draw out on you? Betting the turn is better because we might even bet the river for value, but we still retain the option of checking behind. If you're check-raised on the turn then you give it up.

adsman

07-28-2005, 02:10 AM

Actually, only 3 players cold-called you but that alone tells me that this table is gold. I peel one off and fold to any action behind me.

xGoreDudex

07-28-2005, 02:18 AM

Your beat, fold /images/graemlins/smile.gif
Welcome to low-limit jungle of .25/.50
Players will limp nearly any A, especially with 4 cold callers, Ax is definatley lurking.
wait for a better siutation to get your money.

Eeegah

07-28-2005, 02:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You complain about cold-callers like it's a bad thing.

I raise the flop to protect my hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you raise the flop regardless of the board with KK? Regardless of how many in the hand? If it's 3 to you? Not trying to be pendantic here; I'm trying to figure out where the line is drawn.

The table BTW is fairly passive, although I don't have a full thirty on everyone in the hand this was the first flop UTG (fairly loose) had bet in 25 or so hands.

adsman

07-28-2005, 02:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]

The table BTW is fairly passive, although I don't have a full thirty on everyone in the hand this was the first flop UTG (fairly loose) had bet in 25 or so hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why don't people provide these sort of reads from the beginning? This now makes it an easy fold in my book.

fire_fly

07-28-2005, 03:19 AM

man, I'm reading all these people say "RAISE!" and I'm just shaking my head.

Fold. Please.

Tropex

07-28-2005, 05:46 AM

Someone has an ace, 99%, they always do. That's why KK is reasonable fold in these games if an ace flops. You don't even have any backdoor draws or such so you're probably drawing to 2 outs.

Go Blue

07-28-2005, 06:14 AM

How can any of you even consider raising? How can the you, the OP, even post this? Not to be rude, but autofold.

aK13

07-28-2005, 07:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
How can any of you even consider raising? How can the you, the OP, even post this? Not to be rude, but autofold.

[/ QUOTE ]

People aren't betting aces 100% of the time.

07-28-2005, 07:28 AM

I'd have to say fold as well. It wouldn't suprise me if at least 2 of your opponents have you beat. Discounting the K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, you are drawing to 1.5 outs. Don't worry, this hand will pay for itself with interest next time this situation comes up. If not next time, the time after that.

MadMat

07-28-2005, 07:46 AM

I'd fold this without a second thought. It might be weak tight, but I only lose the 1 BB I've invested preflop in this spot, I'm not wasting another 3BB chasing a lost cause.

If you held the K /images/graemlins/heart.gif if might be worth seeing the turn card if you can do so cheap!

Mat

Go Blue

07-28-2005, 08:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
People aren't betting aces 100% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're absolutely right. And if it was heads up, I'd probably raise. But not with several cold callers to act behind you.

Marquis

07-28-2005, 08:38 AM

Boo-freakin'-hoo. Just fold. Raising is spew.

@bsolute_luck

07-28-2005, 08:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, only 3 players cold-called you but that alone tells me that this table is gold. I peel one off and fold to any action behind me.

[/ QUOTE ]

editted: i putzed up my calcs, but i still think this is the best line.

roughly 10% equity (i think). you'd still get a profit in the long run by peeling here and hitting the miracle on the turn, even if it is the K/images/graemlins/heart.gif which you will then have ~6 outs for the full house.

Marquis

07-28-2005, 08:53 AM

His equity is not even close 35%. Where did you get that?

2+2 Junkie

07-28-2005, 10:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I raise. If I get the button, I'll try to show this hand down for 1 more BB by checking the turn UI.

This could be a bad line, though. I'm posting it to see what other people think.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think a raise is the best play here. You have 3 people who cold called pre-flop, they aren't going to all of a sudden not do it again on the flop.
Also, at this limit, as others have stated, people will cold call with any Ax and go far with it. I am 99% sure someone has an A out of all those players.
There is a flush draw as well. No A is going to fold to the raise, no flush draw is going to fold to a raise, and a range of those cold calling hands by fish (any pocket pair, trust me, ANY pocket pair) will still call hoping to hit their miracle. I think we have to fold here, and then mumble under our breath how ever time we have KK and A comes out....

Eeegah

07-28-2005, 02:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
roughly 10% equity (i think). you'd still get a profit in the long run by peeling here and hitting the miracle on the turn, even if it is the K/images/graemlins/heart.gif which you will then have ~6 outs for the full house.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're assuming no one will raise behind us, and this is a flop that multiple people might like.

Here's the playout:

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Button calls, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG calls.

Flop: (13 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (6 players)
SB checks, UTG bets, Hero folds, MP1 folds, MP2 raises, Button folds, SB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (9.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, MP2 bets, SB calls, UTG calls.

River: (12.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB checks, UTG bets, MP2 raises, SB folds, UTG 3-bets, MP2 caps, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 20.50 BB

Results in white below: 
UTG has Ac 8c (flush, ace high).
MP2 has 3d 6d (full house, threes full of sixes).
Outcome: MP2 wins 20.50 BB. 

To be honest, knowing what crap MP2 will cold-call with is almost worth the 2SB I invested into the hand.

@bsolute_luck

07-28-2005, 04:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You're assuming no one will raise behind us, and this is a flop that multiple people might like.

[/ QUOTE ]

no, i didn't forget. Aaron already said it once and i quoted adsman's post.

TomBrooks

07-28-2005, 07:43 PM

Easiest...Fold...Ever.

UATrewqaz

07-28-2005, 09:42 PM

Easy fold in my opinion, just due to the number of players in the pot. Even if the bettor does not have an ace (I'm guessing he does) then SOMEONE behind you has one. This is .25/.50 and I'm su re any ace dealt to a player is in play. I don't think most .25/.50 fold ace rag.

And as someone pointed out, this isn't even a 2 outter if you're behind.