Fun with kings

[Dave D]

So I called with Kings expecting a raise from someone. This was totally table dependent as a lot of people were being really aggressive and I was getting ready to limp reraise. Well they all just limp. Drat.

Then I flop a set, sweet.... With a flush draw out there. What do you do here?

Incidently, bison still doesnt work for me, what are people using?


***** Hand History for Game 2435079620 *****
NL Texas Hold'em Trny:14314127 Level:6 Blinds (75/150) - Wednesday, July 27, 21:28:28 EDT 2005
Table Multi-Table(403737) Table #17 (Real Money)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 3: spd_bump ( $2055 )
Seat 4: Dave__D ( $1495 )
Seat 8: cobbmw ( $3845 )
Seat 9: fiveheaded ( $1035 )
Seat 10: LUCKYWON ( $755 )
Seat 7: DiPace ( $10687 )
Seat 2: JackHC15 ( $2240 )
Seat 5: chickenfghtr ( $4855 )
Seat 6: Carido ( $2155 )
Seat 1: DrewBoy11 ( $860 )
Trny:14314127 Level:6
Blinds (75/150)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Dave__D [ Kd Kh ]
JackHC15 folds.
spd_bump folds.
>You have options at Table 55042 (6 max) Table!.
Dave__D calls [150].
326
>You have options at Table 55042 (6 max) Table!.
chickenfghtr folds.
Carido folds.
nice
DiPace calls [150].
cobbmw folds.
fast
fiveheaded folds.
LUCKYWON calls [75].
DrewBoy11 checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Kc, 8s, 2s ]
LUCKYWON checks.
DrewBoy11 checks.
Hero...

I get skittish and bet the size of the pot. This may not be the best course of action, but I abhor seeing a two-flush on the flop that doesn't belong to me.

The analytical part of my mind says try for a check-raise if these guys are as aggressive as you say. However, with only one king left in the deck, and no straight draw possible on this board, it is unlikely that anybody got a piece of this flop other than a flush draw. But, I don't have the guts to give away a free card when it gets checked around because nobody hit.

[ThrillFactor]

[ QUOTE ]
I get skittish and bet the size of the pot. This may not be the best course of action, but I abhor seeing a two-flush on the flop that doesn't belong to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Easiest

Check

Ever


Given your stack size v the blinds and the strength of your hand, you absolutely DO NOT want to pick up this pot right here.

There's a great chance that big stack behind you will take a stab at it, but if not, give someone a chance to make second best on the turn.

You want to play this hand for all your chips, win or lose.

[CardSharpCook]

well, you chose a high risk style of play by limping, and I am ok with that. Don't change your plan now that the flop has hit you so heavily. Keep up the high level of risk. Now, yes, it is possible that there is flush draw out there, but usually there isn't. We have 3 others in the pot, two of them in the blinds. The chances that one of them has two spades is actually pretty low - in the neighborhood of 20%. Now, how about this board? K84.... pretty lousy for you, really. What hands limp that we like having in this pot? 98s, 77, A4s, QJo, 65s, A7o etc. What we have to do is convince them that second button might be good OR give them a free card so they can have SOMETHING to work with. Check here. Call any bet.

On the turn, we check again, but we are probably raising, because that 4th card is going to put some kind of a draw out there that will pay for that fifth card. Second best hands will likely check behind on the river, which is the other reason I'm betting now. If this card is a spade, I'M STILL CHECKING!!!! Give them the chance to "semi-bluff" their hi-spade. Players love to semi-bluff - it makes them feel like a pro. "See that dear? That's called a semi-bluff. See, I don't actually have a hand, but I have outs. So it's kind of a bluff, but not really." Best part is, you can get them to pay for that draw twice (first time, they set the price, second time you do). But remember, there is an 80% chance that your kings will still be good on the river, so we are ok with them paying to watch a non-spade hit 80% of the time.

On the other hand, a case could be made for check calling all the way to the river where we chk.rz.

Risk/Reward, people. This hand is a wonderful example.

CSC

Edit: Amen, Thrill

[WillMagic]

I don't mind the limp in the least, especially when you have a 10 big blind stack.

This is definitely a postflop check. It's pretty clear that your opponents don't have much, so you want to give them a chance to bluff at the pot on the turn.

Will

[Dave D]

Part of the reason I limped PF was also that I had just raised the previous hand w/ semi junk and taken the blinds. The table had generally respected my raises. Also a consideration in betting the flop, very easy for me to kill the action I think.

It's amazing how raising two hands in the row often causes huge outrage and makes someone push back and/or lots of people call you b/c suddenly you're a huge bluffer. At least in my experiance.

[ThrillFactor]

[ QUOTE ]

Edit: Amen, Thrill

[/ QUOTE ]


Nice to have you back CSC. Hadn't seen you since Vegas cranked up.

[DemonDeac]

[ QUOTE ]
Part of the reason I limped PF was also that I had just raised the previous hand w/ semi junk and taken the blinds. The table had generally respected my raises. Also a consideration in betting the flop, very easy for me to kill the action I think.

It's amazing how raising two hands in the row often causes huge outrage and makes someone push back and/or lots of people call you b/c suddenly you're a huge bluffer. At least in my experiance.

[/ QUOTE ]

based on this reasoning, i think you need to raise again preflop. whenever i see someone who usually comes in with a raise limp into a pot, i usually think monster. gotta play ur strong and weak hands the same.

[Dave D]

[ QUOTE ]
well, you chose a high risk style of play by limping, and I am ok with that. Don't change your plan now that the flop has hit you so heavily. Keep up the high level of risk. Now, yes, it is possible that there is flush draw out there, but usually there isn't. We have 3 others in the pot, two of them in the blinds. The chances that one of them has two spades is actually pretty low - in the neighborhood of 20%. Now, how about this board? K84.... pretty lousy for you, really. What hands limp that we like having in this pot? 98s, 77, A4s, QJo, 65s, A7o etc. What we have to do is convince them that second button might be good OR give them a free card so they can have SOMETHING to work with. Check here. Call any bet.

On the turn, we check again, but we are probably raising, because that 4th card is going to put some kind of a draw out there that will pay for that fifth card. Second best hands will likely check behind on the river, which is the other reason I'm betting now. If this card is a spade, I'M STILL CHECKING!!!! Give them the chance to "semi-bluff" their hi-spade. Players love to semi-bluff - it makes them feel like a pro. "See that dear? That's called a semi-bluff. See, I don't actually have a hand, but I have outs. So it's kind of a bluff, but not really." Best part is, you can get them to pay for that draw twice (first time, they set the price, second time you do). But remember, there is an 80% chance that your kings will still be good on the river, so we are ok with them paying to watch a non-spade hit 80% of the time.

On the other hand, a case could be made for check calling all the way to the river where we chk.rz.

Risk/Reward, people. This hand is a wonderful example.

CSC

Edit: Amen, Thrill

[/ QUOTE ]

What's my move if a spade falls and the big stack pushes (and has me covered)? Can I really fold here?

What if one of the smaller stacks that doesn't have me covered pushes?

[Dave D]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Part of the reason I limped PF was also that I had just raised the previous hand w/ semi junk and taken the blinds. The table had generally respected my raises. Also a consideration in betting the flop, very easy for me to kill the action I think.

It's amazing how raising two hands in the row often causes huge outrage and makes someone push back and/or lots of people call you b/c suddenly you're a huge bluffer. At least in my experiance.

[/ QUOTE ]

based on this reasoning, i think you need to raise again preflop. whenever i see someone who usually comes in with a raise limp into a pot, i usually think monster. gotta play ur strong and weak hands the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah it's kinda paradoxical reasoning I know. But I was more afraid that a raise would cause too many callers, or possibly I win the blinds again. Both outcomes suck. I guess I could have raised but I was very very confident I'd get a raise to my limp.

[ThrillFactor]

[ QUOTE ]

What's my move if a spade falls and the big stack pushes (and has me covered)? Can I really fold here?

What if one of the smaller stacks that doesn't have me covered pushes?

[/ QUOTE ]



Check/call any flop bet.

Check/call or check/raise any blank on the turn depending upon the size of your opponent's bet.

If a flush card falls on the turn, you're all in when the action gets to you. Make the Ace pay for the river.

[Dave D]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

What's my move if a spade falls and the big stack pushes (and has me covered)? Can I really fold here?

What if one of the smaller stacks that doesn't have me covered pushes?

[/ QUOTE ]



Check/call any flop bet.

Check/call or check/raise any blank on the turn depending upon the size of your opponent's bet.

If a flush card falls on the turn, you're all in when the action gets to you. Make the Ace pay for the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

You sorta missed the question. What happens if someone pushes at me. Or maybe you didn't, just wanna make sure.

[ThrillFactor]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

What's my move if a spade falls and the big stack pushes (and has me covered)? Can I really fold here?

What if one of the smaller stacks that doesn't have me covered pushes?

[/ QUOTE ]



Check/call any flop bet.

Check/call or check/raise any blank on the turn depending upon the size of your opponent's bet.

If a flush card falls on the turn, you're all in when the action gets to you. Make the Ace pay for the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

You sorta missed the question. What happens if someone pushes at me. Or maybe you didn't, just wanna make sure.

[/ QUOTE ]


You beat their chips into the pot. Win or lose. You were in bad shape before this hand and you will not see a better chance to double.

Even in the extremely unlikely event that you are behind, you have 10 outs on the river.

[CardSharpCook]

I disagree with beating their chips into the pot. I still want a double/triple up out of my set of kings. Yes, it is risky to allow both players to check behind, but that is the risk I take. a guestimated 70% of the time someone WILL bet at this on the turn, and the 30% that they don't - well, the 4th spade shows up only 20% of the time.

Set back, relax, and allow the second best hands to do your work.

CSC

[Dave D]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

What's my move if a spade falls and the big stack pushes (and has me covered)? Can I really fold here?

What if one of the smaller stacks that doesn't have me covered pushes?

[/ QUOTE ]



Check/call any flop bet.

Check/call or check/raise any blank on the turn depending upon the size of your opponent's bet.

If a flush card falls on the turn, you're all in when the action gets to you. Make the Ace pay for the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

You sorta missed the question. What happens if someone pushes at me. Or maybe you didn't, just wanna make sure.

[/ QUOTE ]


You beat their chips into the pot. Win or lose. You were in bad shape before this hand and you will not see a better chance to double.

Even in the extremely unlikely event that you are behind, you have 10 outs on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

9 BBs isnt exactly crisis mode.

Again, there's only one person to act behind me on the turn and 2 in front. What if one goes all in, I'm prety sure you're advocating a call, but I'm not "beating their chips in to the pot" if that happens.

[Dave D]

[ QUOTE ]

Set back, relax, and allow the second best hands to do your work.
CSC

[/ QUOTE ]

Funniest poker joke of the night...


FWIW the 4th spade did come on the turn and the bb shorty moved all and I called (like 700). His 7Ts held up.

edit: I checked the flop hoping for last to act to bet and then I would have probably pushed.

[ThrillFactor]

[ QUOTE ]

9 BBs isnt exactly crisis mode.

Again, there's only one person to act behind me on the turn and 2 in front. What if one goes all in, I'm prety sure you're advocating a call, but I'm not "beating their chips in to the pot" if that happens.

[/ QUOTE ]


Ok, we're not exactly communicating here.

9BB late in a tourney might not be all that bad. But 9BB at the 150 level, barely into the 2nd hour, and it's time to [censored] or get off the pot.

I understand the position of your opponents. If a flush card falls on the turn and one of the blinds pushes into you, I move in over the top. A 700-800 stack pushing that turn can mean anything from total desperation bluff to a flopped made-hand that's now scared of the 4-flush.

An argument can be made, I guess, to just call that push and hope big-stack behind you comes along with the Ace. But that's extremely unlikely, and if he's going to call 800, he'll probably call 1350 anyway.

So...

Check/call any flop bet

Check/call or check/raise a blank turn depending on the action and whether or not your oppenents would be committed to calling your all-in.

I get all my chips into the middle if a flush card hits the turn - whether I'm calling or first in. CSC advocates checking here also given there's only a 20% chance that the 4-flush hits on the rvr, but personally I've got the most terrible luck when it comes to things like this. And maybe just maybe, the ace calls your turn push anyway - and that's chips you wouldn't have gotten if the rvr blanks.

[ThrillFactor]

Dem's da breaks.

Of course, there's nothing you could have done. The blind is calling even if you push the flop.

[Dave D]

[ QUOTE ]
Dem's da breaks.

Of course, there's nothing you could have done. The blind is calling even if you push the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I actually ended up having about 850 and doing pretty well later on, but that's another story.