did i play this right

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif. MP3 posts a blind of $0.07.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP3 (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button :#A500AF(small stakes 2p2er)/ calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5.40 SB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP3 folds, small stakes 2p2er calls, SB calls.

Turn: (5.70 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">small stakes 2p2er raises</font>, SB calls $0.16 (All-In), <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">small stakes 2p2er caps</font>, Hero calls.

River: (15.30 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 1 all-in)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, small stakes 2p2er calls.

Final Pot: 17.30 BB

[davelin]

I wouldn't 3bet the turn.

[GrunchCan]

Don't open-limp.

Not many hands make sense for the 2+2er except for the hands that beat you, like J9 or a flopped set or 2-pr. I doubt I'd 3-bet the turn. I'm calling down.

[MrWookie47]

Raising preflop is mandatory. Flop is fine.

When you say SS 2p2er, is he a 2/4+ blowing off steam in the nanos, or is he a fellow nano regular? Does he know you're a 2+2er?

I think 3betting that turn was overboard, but you probably wouldn't have lost this hand had you raised preflop.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
I think 3betting that turn was overboard, but you probably wouldn't have lost this hand had you raised preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is probably the most important thing to get from this hand. Did you play this hand right? No. You probably lost the pot to a hand that wouldn't have entered in the first place had you PFRed as you should have.

[magates]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising preflop is mandatory.

[/ QUOTE ]

You think raising is mandatory at a full table UTG+1 with KQo? I still pretty much follow SSH pre-flop, but it says to limp in early position, raise in middle position. Just curious how many people out there so strongly disagree with SSH in this case.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raising preflop is mandatory.

[/ QUOTE ]

You think raising is mandatory at a full table UTG+1 with KQo? I still pretty much follow SSH pre-flop, but it says to limp in early position, raise in middle position. Just curious how many people out there so strongly disagree with SSH in this case.

[/ QUOTE ]

SSH tells you to open-limp with KQo? I think not.

[magates]

[ QUOTE ]
SSH tells you to open-limp with KQo? I think not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Page 80, Tight Games, Early Position: "Play: KQo"

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
SSH tells you to open-limp with KQo? I think not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Page 80, Tight Games, Early Position: "Play: KQo"

[/ QUOTE ]

You missed the section that says basically never open-limp. I haven't read SSH in a long while, and I don't have a copy here. But I think it's in a subsection after the kool-aid (er, charts) titled something like "pre-flop considerations".

[iluzion]

[ QUOTE ]

When you say SS 2p2er, is he a 2/4+ blowing off steam in the nanos, or is he a fellow nano regular? Does he know you're a 2+2er?

[/ QUOTE ]

He means a 3/6 full and 6max player whos been observing his play down there. (It was me, obviously.)

I'd say with that hand I wouldn't have 3bet the turn, 3betting and leading the river made me think you had a set on the flop, and you just filled up. I still prolly should have raised river, though.

[aces_dad]

Looking at the PDF I have here for a tight table, first in EP, the recommendation for KQo is call. Same as KQs, KJs, and K10s. Don't have the actual book to compare this chart I got from 2+2 here sometime ago.

For a loose table it recommends a raise in the same situation.

Seems like .05/.10 would play closer to the loose than the tight table.

[gharp]

As long as we're talking about passages from the Bible, there's also this (SSH, pg. 77):

[ QUOTE ]
For instance, there have been myriad arguments about what to do with king-queen offsuit under the gun. Most of the thousands of hours spent debating this point were wasted. Under typical conditions the difference in expectation between raising and calling is quite small.

[/ QUOTE ]

I also raise it up in early position, but I don't think it's super-clear. And saying you would've won here if you had is a being a bit results-oriented. I can probably find a hand where I raised KQo early, got tied to a pot with second pair and ended up losing more money than I would have by limping.

[gharp]

You really never open-limp from UTG+1?

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
Looking at the PDF I have here for a tight table, first in EP, the recommendation for KQo is call. Same as KQs, KJs, and K10s. Don't have the actual book to compare this chart I got from 2+2 here sometime ago.

For a loose table it recommends a raise in the same situation.

Seems like .05/.10 would play closer to the loose than the tight table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, then. If SSH actually says that you should open-limp with KQo in EP at a typical micros table then I strongly disagree with that advice.

I never open KQo for a limp in EP at these tables. Never.

[aces_dad]

When looking at this chart again I was surprised to see KQs UTG recommended to limp in. I almost always raise here. Of course I don't like open limping much so if I'm playing KQo UTG I'm typically raising myself.


And like you say, this KQo UTG decision must be close enough that limping can't be that bad.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
You really never open-limp from UTG+1?

[/ QUOTE ]

I never open-limp a TP-type hand from UTG, no. I'll open-limp other hands, like A/images/graemlins/club.gif5/images/graemlins/club.gif. The reason is that KQo is played for TP most often, and in that case I want a shorthanded pot. Opening a pot for 1 encourages a multiway pot, and makes out postflop position more precarious than it needs to be.

[aces_dad]

I tend to agree with this statement. I also don't like the recommendation to open limp with KQs. I feel it's better to get the pot shorthanded, and if many people come along for 2 bets, then the odds to draw will be there as a bonus.

[magates]

[ QUOTE ]
You missed the section that says basically never open-limp. I haven't read SSH in a long while, and I don't have a copy here. But I think it's in a subsection after the kool-aid (er, charts) titled something like "pre-flop considerations".

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to be argumentative, I'm mediocre at best and basically try to follow SSH as closely as I can, but it says nothing like "never open-limp", especially in reference to early position. SSH does say, on page 90, "When you are first to enter the pot from middle position . . . you should tend to raise some hands that you might ordinarily limp with." I don't think that applies to UTG+1 10 max.

Again, my opinion is obviously not based on experience. SSH does have you raising with KQo in a loose game, but even at .25/.50 I rarely see more than 5 people on the flop, so I try to follow the Tight Game pre-flop guidelines.

KQo from UTG+1 sounds like a pretty close call between raising and calling . . . but what do I know?

[gharp]

OK -- those are also my reasons for raising it in early position (as well as hands like AJo and maybe even ATo). But I'm willing to believe that the risk you're taking in getting called/reraised by a dominating hand might make the decision close. It doesn't stop me from raising 'em though...

[magates]

[ QUOTE ]
I never open-limp a TP-type hand from UTG, no. I'll open-limp other hands, like A/images/graemlins/club.gif5/images/graemlins/club.gif. The reason is that KQo is played for TP most often, and in that case I want a shorthanded pot. Opening a pot for 1 encourages a multiway pot, and makes out postflop position more precarious than it needs to be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the explanation, that's exactly the kind of advice I scour these forums for. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[GrunchCan]

Feel free to be as argumentative as you like. (Without being a jerk) The arguing that goes on at 2+2 is what makes it good; not bad.

I don't want to belabor the point, so I'll just restate my position consisely. You can choose to disagree with me if you like, and that's fine.

I never open-limp KQo in EP (or any position, for that matter) at a 10-handed table. The reason isn't based on equity or pot odds or even EV direcly really. The reason is becasue 2-betting it makes my postflop situation better than open-limping does. If I'm sitting at a table where I feel that I can't open KQo for a raise, I'll fold it. (That's pretty uncommon, but it does happen when the game is extremely tough).

Another thing. I know that SSH categorizes the starting hands by the typical number of post-flop oppenents. I think that's an unfortunate shortcut. A very important consideration is how badly the opponents play postflop. That's the way I look at it. If I feel I can outplay the table, I'll come in to more pots. If I think I'm the sucker, I'm playing tight. There are exceptions, but that's a general rule. Bad players tend to come in to more pots than they should, and so categorizing the charts by 'typical players to the flop' is a circuitous way of categorizing the skill at the table, IMO.

[nomadtla]

[ QUOTE ]
Feel free to be as argumentative as you like. (Without being a jerk) The arguing that goes on at 2+2 is what makes it good; not bad.

I don't want to belabor the point, so I'll just restate my position consisely. You can choose to disagree with me if you like, and that's fine.

I never open-limp KQo in EP (or any position, for that matter) at a 10-handed table. The reason isn't based on equity or pot odds or even EV direcly really. The reason is becasue 2-betting it makes my postflop situation better than open-limping does. If I'm sitting at a table where I feel that I can't open KQo for a raise, I'll fold it. (That's pretty uncommon, but it does happen when the game is extremely tough).

Another thing. I know that SSH categorizes the starting hands by the typical number of post-flop oppenents. I think that's an unfortunate shortcut. A very important consideration is how badly the opponents play postflop. That's the way I look at it. If I feel I can outplay the table, I'll come in to more pots. If I think I'm the sucker, I'm playing tight. There are exceptions, but that's a general rule. Bad players tend to come in to more pots than they should, and so categorizing the charts by 'typical players to the flop' is a circuitous way of categorizing the skill at the table, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

NH grunch

[gopnik]

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't 3bet the turn.


[/ QUOTE ]

[J. Stew]

I think its pretty clear that at the nano's you would raise KQo every time. Small Stakes also umbrellas games like 2/4 and 3/6 which have players on a different level than the micros/nanos. I think whether to raise or call with KQo at higher small stakes games is debatable, but not at the lower games. . . get the fish out.

[Walker]

How about an extremely loose game where your EP raise with KJo, ATo is going to be called by like 6 or more players. Both are too good to fold, no? And, would we definitely raise AJo, KQo in this spot because of our equity edge?

Any ideas why SSH has you calling AJo, KQo in EP; and ATo in MP, in "tight" games?

[eviljeff]

uhh I think you like your hand a bit too much. the smooth call flop/raise turn is a pretty strong move. I think you're likely behind. definitely don't 3bet the turn.

[Me and You]

It appears to me that you are MP3 in which case No I wouldn't of posted the blind wait till it comes to you and know I wouldn't of folded on the flop. You should have called maybe raised.

Hang on then you say you know hero's cards. KQo Which one is the OP?