Help me with lower stake jerks.

I dont typically like to play 2/4 but.....

I dont know what to do here, I play very tight and aggresive when I am in a hand. I have guys calling all day with suited cards and after the flop 3 to the flush, and of course, catching runner, runner. I am baffled at the stupidity of the players, I am not trying to outsmart them, I am just trying to outplay them. Is a good strategy in 2/4 to call in know matter what? I cant believe it is. I have lost recenlty a ridiculuous amout of money VS table stakes to guys like this. I do consider my self a good player and usually fair well at the higher stake tables 10/20 or PL. I just dont know what to do. ADVICE PLEASE. When there are more than one luck-box in a hand at a time, what should I do????? My 'roll has takin a major hit from these guys and I am not sure, if I should just wait for NO-Limit to come where I am at and stick to local tourneys. I can understand that crappy players just want to call all the time but when I have a table full of calling stations what should I do. Fold all hands except AA, oh wait I did play that and was cracked by Q4Suited, runner runner flush, capped on preflop and flop.

AHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HELP ME!!!

[W. Deranged]

1. Relax

2. Read some books--Theory of Poker, Small Stakes Hold'em, and then any other half decent books you can find (check the books forum; my apologies if you've read all this stuff already... actually, even if you have, read it all again).

3. Build up "confidence in the numbers." Remember that if you are making correct decisions you will win in the long-run.

4. Post some hands here that you find particularly frustrating to get (hopefully) sound advice.

5. Get out of that 2/4 game as quickly as you can, because B+M 2/4 is often very, very difficult to beat, not because of the "luck-boxes," but because of the rake, which often comes to 3 BB or more per hour.

6. Make use of all of the very good stuff that has already been written in this forum. A great way to start would be to read Jake the Snake's digests from the past four weaks. Give thoughtful read throughs to all of the threads in order to get familiar with how we reason and come to conclusions on hands.

Welcome to the forum.

Your right its F'en 2/4. I do read those books. Where I live I dont have much of a choice on 2/4, which sucks. Yes I can play on-line but I prefer a live game. I am re-reading those books everyday.

I guess I am wondering if there is a better strategy to playing many calling stations in a pot. Besides be aggresive play the nuts and the usual.

Thanks for the help.

[callmedonnie]

you sound like you're tilting a bit. and you also sound like someone who doesn't understand swings. If you know that you are playing well, you shouldn't worry about it. As for posting, post things that you think you may be doing wrong, or scenarios in which you are unsure of the correct action.

Playing against calling stations, and several at a time, is quite profitable. Stick with it, but make sure you have the cognizance to know if you're losses have something to do with your own play.

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
1. Relax

[/ QUOTE ]
Awesome. No other advice needed.

[droolie]

[ QUOTE ]
Your right its F'en 2/4. I do read those books. Where I live I dont have much of a choice on 2/4, which sucks. Yes I can play on-line but I prefer a live game. I am re-reading those books everyday.

I guess I am wondering if there is a better strategy to playing many calling stations in a pot. Besides be aggresive play the nuts and the usual.

Thanks for the help.

[/ QUOTE ]

Play some nano-limit hold'em online before you play again. I'm talking .02/.04 on stars or similar limit on another site. It will play just like your casino game and will be a good learning ground for you. Reread SSH and apply concepts liberally. You will lose with of your premium pf holdings so expect it. The pots you do win will be huge though and will more than make up for the times you get sucked out on.

The micro-limit forum is a great place to learn how to beat these games BTW

Yeah your right, I am feeling the tilt. I dont believe I was tilting then. I can understand swings. I am just angry. I know I shouldnt be angry, because these people pay the bills. I am just frustrated for the moment. Thanks for the help.

[steamboatin]

Big pocket pairs and top pair top kicker go down in value and big draws go up in value. The swings are murder so just get ready to ride the whirlwind, play tight and aggressive and you will come out ahead in the long term.

[jskills]

You should really consider moving back up to higher stakes right away. Your good play will only be ruined by the "lower stakes jerks". With your skill and experience at 10/20 why even bother wasting your time at 2/4? You're obviously way beyond that now.

[ QUOTE ]
Fold all hands except AA, oh wait I did play that and was cracked by Q4Suited, runner runner flush, capped on preflop and flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Always fold AA. It isn't worth the trouble. Everyone knows AA loses you so much money in online poker.

[droolie]

[ QUOTE ]
Big pocket pairs and top pair top kicker go down in value and big draws go up in value. The swings are murder so just get ready to ride the whirlwind, play tight and aggressive and you will come out ahead in the long term.

[/ QUOTE ]

Big pocket pairs retain or perhaps even go up in value (all pocket pairs do.) You win with them slightly less frequently but win just as much if not more on them overall. Big offuit holdings that are traditional top pair hands go down in value though.

[AVF2k1]

I surely hope you're being sarcastic when giving the advice to fold AA in online poker! AA is my most profitable hand. I win 77% of the times I have rockets and I've played over 50 000 hands online (I.e. I've hade AA over 225 times).

So I suggest if you are serious about folding AA, to re-think your advice, and maybe your online play.

/Oscar

I was with Gorby both nights we got railed and I can attest we both played very solid. Especially in limit poker, the better player should take home the money, so I have to think it's a matter of odds - not winning hand odds but good vs. bad player odds. If you have one person in every pot playing a good starting hand and four to six people playing every rag hand they have to the river, chances are the good player will be sucked out on more times than not, no?

Does anyone know if there's any statistical information on how many callling stations make for an unfavorable table? Or in theory is it the more calling stations the better?

P.S. That's good advice about playing micro-limit. I imagine the play will be identical.

[AVF2k1]

I would go with, the more the merrier. If you hit, you win big and if you get sucked out you don't lose as much as to an aggressive player.

I love callingstations!

/Oscar

[W. Deranged]

More calling stations = More $ for good players.

It's that simple. What you MUST realize is that more players mean you will get sucked out on more but the pots you win will be much bigger and this more than makes up for the lost pots.

In poker you are trying to win money, not pots. That is it.

Welcome to the forum. Be wary that you will probably get slightly flamed for this question.

[SeaEagle]

[ QUOTE ]
More calling stations = More $ for good players.

It's that simple.

[/ QUOTE ]
To be fair, it's not quite that simple. More calling stations = a higher variance. But assuming your BR is big enough to handle the variance, 9 calling stations would be ideal.

[W. Deranged]

Duly noted.

[davet]

I oftem play 2/4 and there is a good quote in SSHE

"Don't worry about the results, as long as you play correctly, the money will take care of itself."

Sorry if I misquoted.

I have been down $100 dollars and spun it into a $140 win. Remember that the more they play, the more they take chances, it might take eight hours, but, more often than not, you will be up at the end of the day.

Relax and if you if you can't, walk around for a few minutes, grab a soda.

[steamboatin]

You get sucked out more when you have a table full of calling stations and if you only focus on short term results, then it can seem to be a losing situation but it is in fact the most profitable situation in poker.

Yes you get AA cracked by crap but when AA holds up, you get paid really well. The benefit of playing against a table full of calling stations, is you get paid off when you win and you don't get charged the maximum when you are behind.

[crunchy1]

If you want to know what your REAL problems here are - it's that you're referring to your opponents as "jerks".

Possibly there are one or two "jerks" but, more likely they are all pretty nice people. They just don't understand how to play good poker.

You don't understand how to take advantage of their poor play and you lose. You then TILT and get all pissy, play bad and refer to these bad players as jerks. You might even get mean towards them which only results in causing them to play better against you than they normally would against other people.

I'm quite possibly wrong here but, when I see some n00b come into small stakes and refer to his opponents as "jerks" - it's quite obvious to me who is likely the REAL "jerk".

[W. Deranged]

Crunchy rules...

I think it is important for everyone to remember that poker is actually played against people. A little reminder about etiquette and decency is good every once in awhile.

Thanks for the reminder, Crunch.

[jskills]

My post was nothing but sarcasm. Thought it was obvious. Sorry, I'm not usually the wise ass type.

I wouldnt bother playing 2/4 B&M, the rake is too high, youre better off with 3/6 or 4/8

I know it sounds like I am tilting here, I wasn't. Also I assure you I never tell bad poker players they are playing bad. I am just frustated a day later, thats all. I know when a player is to new to the game, to understand when to fold, and keeps on calling thinking J high is good.

Also it has occured to me, through some brilliance.(Sarcasm) That people play 2/4 like they play freerolls online, there's not alot I can do when called by that many people all the way down except of course play solid poker and fold when I know I am beat. I appreciate all the advice though.

Sorry if I sound pissy. I assure, I wasnt at the game.

There's a great article at pokersavvy.com explaining almost this exact situation, and how to handle it.

http://www.pokersavvy.com/article/wildholdemi.html

Hope it helps buddy.

[JTrout]

For the type of games you describe, I would highly recommend you read Gary Carson's book (http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=1130477)

as well as Ed Miller's.

[crunchy1]

http://www.seconx.com/assets/idiocy.jpg

[SeaEagle]

[ QUOTE ]
http://www.pokersavvy.com/article/wildholdemi.html

[/ QUOTE ]
What about this article is great?
Sample excerpt:

For example, a maniac sees a hand like A-9 of clubs and thinks he's got a monster. Hell, he's played a lot worse, right? So he raises with it. Now at this point, you're crushing the maniac with your A-Q. But when six other people call, suddenly you're drawing almost dead. Thus a hand like 3-4 suited can go up tremendously in value because, most of the time, the majority of the hands will be congregated at the higher end of the deck, leaving your cards live. Same goes if the flop should come A-K-8 rainbow. When you have the 3-4, you can easily chuck it in the muck. And that, as you should know, can save you mucho dinero in the long run.

Think of how much money you've wasted on pocket Kings when an ace hits the flop and you call all the way down to the river, knowing you're beat, because ... why? (Well, that's a whole 'nother article.) And you avoid the situation where, say, you've called with J-10 off and you flop a jack but you don't know if you've flopped the best Jack, and it's going to cost you a couple stacks of chips to find out.

[JTrout]

[ QUOTE ]
lower stake jerks

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a bad way to look at the people who make the game profitable.
I'm no psychologist, but I'm sure it would be in your best interest to adjust you're thinking concerning bad players.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
http://www.pokersavvy.com/article/wildholdemi.html

[/ QUOTE ]
What about this article is great?

[/ QUOTE ]
It's a great way for this troll affiliate to advertise a link on each page of the article for himself.

[chief444]

So I shouldn't 3-bet a maniac with AQ or KK but I should cold/call with 34s because I won't lose as much money? Yeah, great article.

I can watch watch soap operas all day and not lose money.

[chief444]

People play 2/4 at casinos for fun. Playing 2/4 at a casino for profit seems kind of silly since you can go flip burgers at McDonald's and make more per hour.

[gasoltub]

[ QUOTE ]
There's a great article at pokersavvy.com explaining almost this exact situation, and how to handle it.

http://www.pokersavvy.com/article/wildholdemi.html

Hope it helps buddy.

[/ QUOTE ]

bullcrap article. can't believe I actually read both parts. The author is embarassing himself.

Wow! I thought it was a mildly humorous assesment of the situation Groby was in... but...

If everyone here takes everything so damned literally, I guess I'll have to be more careful about my future posts. Sheesh! I've know Gorby for eons, and I knew he'd get the humor of it.

For someone who tells him what a "jerk" Gorby is, Crunchy here sounds awful confrontational.

[DavidC]

I know how you feel, bro. We all do.

Basically just keep making correct decisions and playing more hands. This is part of the game, and to be honest, it's the reason we make money playing: if it didn't ever happen, the bad players wouldn't play. In the long-term, it's YOUR game, not THEIRS, and you will make money if you play right.

In the meantime, don't post anything like this ever again.

--Dave.

[DavidC]

Oh yeah, and AA only wins like 5/6 of the time HU against a random hand.

Against JTs (not suited with one of the aces), it wins about 4/5 of the time (even less).

So, it's not really uncommon to see aces beaten, especially in multiway pots.

This DOES NOT mean that you should be playing aces passively, though.

Take care,
and don't post anything like this again,
Dave.

First of all, I stopped reading that article as soon as he said

"Sklansky's advice had an immediate effect on my playing: my presence in a pot became a complete action killer."

If that is what he took from Sklansky, then he did not read it properly.

As for my comments - I play low stakes B&R games more or less exclusively - I am no pro by any means, but I have observed that all that is required is to modify your game to fit the situation.

For example, ordinarily, what is the your intention when making a pre-flop bet? There are various outcomes you hope for, but one of them is clearly to knock out people with crappy hands to ensure that they do not draw out on you.

Taking that information in hand, how do you adjust your strategy when you KNOW that you pre-flop bet will not knock anyone out - as is often the case in a low-stakes game? Would you still make the bet?

The other thing that amazes me is how many people focus on one aspect of playing against low-limit players (who tend to not be as good) - the fact that they will stay in and wind up drawing out on you - but seem to neglect something far more important - that they are generally MUCH easier to read!!

They are not likely to check-raise - they are not likely to raise unless they feel they have a winning hand - they will alsmot never raise pre-flop unless they have a pocket pair or AK, AQ or AJ - they are very likely to chase straights and flushes. Even if they do some of these things, you can very easily adjust because - and this is the most important thing - YOU KNOW THAT THEY ARE NOT LIKELY TO ADJUST THEIR GAME!!

Think about all those things you are gaining vs. the one thing you are losing, which, btw, basically boils down to one thing - the inability to bluff your opponent out.

IMHO, the people who play THE WORST against low-limit players are players who are strict, by-the-books guys - these guys understand the odds, they understand the fundamentals, but they have not yet learned how to adjust their game to different styles - they are also likely to be guys who are used to playing online and so do not yet really know how to read tells and emotional reactions - similarly, they have likely not learned how to moderate their tells and emotions to their advantage.

[gasoltub]

[ QUOTE ]
For example, ordinarily, what is the your intention when making a pre-flop bet? There are various outcomes you hope for, but one of them is clearly to knock out people with crappy hands to ensure that they do not draw out on you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhm... no, why would you want to knock out people with crappy hands?
You really should be hoping that you get called by crappy hands.