J9s - I continue to bet my draw on the turn

[topspin]

Only my second orbit, so no good reads on anyone yet. UTG has been somewhat loose preflop and UTG+1 has been very loose. No postflop reads, but the table (like many Paradise tables) is relatively tight postflop. It's not unusual for hands to go to the river and then not get shown down.

Paradise Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) http://216.119.70.224/converter/hhconverter.pl

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Hero checks.

Flop: (4.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 folds.

Turn: (3.75 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets...</font>

I think a little bit here about checking, but I figure that (1) it's unlikely I'll get a free card from EP and (2) more importantly, I might be able to represent top pair turned trips and get some fold equity.

Of course, the downside is that sometimes I get raised by someone else who really does have trips now but was tentative with top pair on the flop, and I can't fold. Also, if I get called in 1 spot, then I have to figure out if I fire again on the river UI.

Thoughts?

[mwilli31]

[ QUOTE ]
(2) more importantly, I might be able to represent top pair turned trips and get some fold equity.


[/ QUOTE ]
Played perfectly IMO. If you do get raised by someone who might actually have trips it's an easy call with your strong draw. If you don't hit, probably an easy c/f on the river. If you're just called, I'd go with checking the river UI.

[2+2 Junkie]

If they are tight, I would definitely fire again. However, on the turn we have lost our pot equity edge here and I would probably just check and call any bet.

Iam weak though /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[jrz1972]

I often go ahead and bet this as well. If at least one of the villains is definitely known to be a folder, betting is almost automatic. If both are the kind that jump with joy to show down pocket sixes on this sort of board, check/calling is almost automatic.

Against two relative unknowns, its obviously close and I couldn't really argue with either action. The second Q makes me lean a bit toward betting because its hard for somebody to have a Q and that second Q looks at least as scary to the other players as it does to me.

[POKhER]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(2) more importantly, I might be able to represent top pair turned trips and get some fold equity.


[/ QUOTE ]
Played perfectly IMO. If you do get raised by someone who might actually have trips it's an easy call with your strong draw. If you don't hit, probably an easy c/f on the river. If you're just called, I'd go with checking the river UI.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep agree with this.

I bet the turn like you did, If raised call.
Miss your draw, I check/fold.

If the flush comes up... Im not sure if i go for check raise or just bet out

[jrz1972]

If the flush hits, I normally would bet out on the river against an unknown. That third flush card is an obvious scare card, and I definitely do not want villain checking behind, so I take the one bet rather than go for two in the bush.

If I make my straight, I'm more inclined to go for the check-raise because its usually harder for the villain to see the straight than the flush, so he's less likely to get scared and check the hand down.

Obviously this is read-dependent though.

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
Only my second orbit, so no good reads on anyone yet. UTG has been somewhat loose preflop and UTG+1 has been very loose. No postflop reads, but the table (like many Paradise tables) is relatively tight postflop. It's not unusual for hands to go to the river and then not get shown down.

Paradise Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) http://216.119.70.224/converter/hhconverter.pl

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Hero checks.

Flop: (4.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 folds.

Turn: (3.75 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets...</font>

I think a little bit here about checking, but I figure that (1) it's unlikely I'll get a free card from EP and (2) more importantly, I might be able to represent top pair turned trips and get some fold equity.

Of course, the downside is that sometimes I get raised by someone else who really does have trips now but was tentative with top pair on the flop, and I can't fold. Also, if I get called in 1 spot, then I have to figure out if I fire again on the river UI.

Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

i like this bet a lot.

[Fantam]

I would feel inclined to follow up with a turn bet.

I think that if someone had a Q, then they would usually have raised your bet on the flop. Also if your turn bet does get called or raised, then you still have 15 outs to improve to a flush or straight.

So I would regard a turn bet as a semi-bluff into 2 opponents, which seems reasonable for a tight table.

If I was called (or raised), I dont think that I would fire away with another bet UI on the river with only J high. That would most likely end up value betting someone elses 2 pair (or set) for them.

[topspin]

Last decision:

Paradise Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) http://216.119.70.224/converter/hhconverter.pl

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Hero checks.

Flop: (4.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 folds.

Turn: (3.75 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds.

River: (5.75 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero ...

I figure if he's going anywhere, it's on the turn, since I can't imagine he would figure he's behind to my "trips" on the turn and call drawing dead or to a two-outer.

Easy fold now, or am I good ~1 in 8 against something like another missed flush draw, a pair of 7's, a small PP, or a worse 9?

[aargh57]

I think you fold. If you were going to call here you should've bet out(Although I don't think you should've done that either, I think it's a check/fold). Also how do you get 1 in 8. Aren't you calling 1 bet to win 7 now?

[topspin]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you fold. If you were going to call here you should've bet out

[/ QUOTE ]

You should only bet the river if you think that either a worse hand will call or a better hand will fold. I don't think either holds here.

Hence I'm thinking check/fold or check/call are the only interesting options.

[ QUOTE ]
Also how do you get 1 in 8. Aren't you calling 1 bet to win 7 now?

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess strictly speaking I should have said 1 in 7.75, but I rounded /images/graemlins/grin.gif That's the breakeven point for a call -- 7.75 bets in the pot total, of which I contributed 1 bet.

[aargh57]

Ah, once again I am both humbled and educated at the same time. However, (perhaps I'm dense here) I still don't see the 7.75 bets. On the river there's 5.75 bets in the pot. Villain puts in one making it 6.75. I realize calling adds 1 more but aren't you still putting in one bet to win 6.75.