Passively played 3 handed line check

[durron597]

I decided that this opponent was likely to bluff off a good amount of his stack to me, and I didn't raise the river because he only calls with a flush or a better king, right? I figured boards don't get more innocent than that.

PokerRoom No-limit Texas Hold'em $20+$2 (real money)

Seat 1: SB ($4,990 in chips)
Seat 6: Hero ($6,710 in chips)
Seat 7: Button ($3,300 in chips)

Hero is BB with 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif

ANTES/BLINDS
SB posts blind ($200), Hero posts blind ($400).

PRE-FLOP
1 fold, BradleyJolly calls $200, durron597 checks.

FLOP [board cards K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif,10/images/graemlins/spade.gif,6/images/graemlins/club.gif ]
SB bets $400, Hero calls $400.

TURN [board cards K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif,10/images/graemlins/spade.gif,6/images/graemlins/club.gif,J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ]
SB checks, Hero checks.

RIVER [board cards K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif,10/images/graemlins/spade.gif,6/images/graemlins/club.gif,J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif,5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ]
SB bets $800, Hero calls $800.

[ChrisV]

I'd have moved in preflop, but since you didn't...

The minbet doesn't fill me with hope that the guy is going to bluff much off to me, but lets go with your read... if you just call the flop, you really have to turn up the heat on the turn. That check makes me shudder, your hand is too vulnerable at this point. Just bet and take down the pot, there's 1600 chips out there going begging.

[bluefeet]

I think it's fine. Raise the flop? Eh...don't know if I want to get in a pissing match. I might want to do a little check-up on the turn though. I'd throw the min-bet back at him. If he comes over the top.."fine, take it". But in the spirit of "checking it down", a likely cold call (or maybe even a fold!) by him, might provide you a cheap check-check at the river.

Again though, I think the passive approach is ok with your stack. I'd just assume assert myself when opening, than duke it out post-flop on a hand that will leave you wondering 'am I really ahead?' at some point.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd have moved in preflop, but since you didn't...

[/ QUOTE ]

Look at the stack sizes, this is obviously wrong raising preflop might be correct, but pushing certainly isn't.

[ QUOTE ]

The minbet doesn't fill me with hope that the guy is going to bluff much off to me, but lets go with your read...

[/ QUOTE ]

This is my biggest concern with the hand. I am not certain that he will bluff off to me.

[ QUOTE ]
if you just call the flop, you really have to turn up the heat on the turn. That check makes me shudder, your hand is too vulnerable at this point.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? I have no reason to put him on an ace (wouldn't he have raised preflop?) or a queen for much the same reason. Also I have absolutely no reason to believe he has the backdoor diamond draw. Really the hand I most fear here is like a Q6o (or Qd 6d for worst case scenario), but so much more of his range is drawing dead or close to it that I chose to check in case he bet again with what is probably the worst hand on the river.

[ChrisV]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd have moved in preflop, but since you didn't...

[/ QUOTE ]

Look at the stack sizes, this is obviously wrong raising preflop might be correct, but pushing certainly isn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. This is not the same as open pushing. SB has declined the opportunity to raise. Against normal players this means either a monstrous hand, or a mediocre or bad hand which will not be able to call a push (but may call a smaller raise). SB restealing, or calling the raise and outflopping me in a situation where I will be quite committed, is more of a concern to me than the low-percentage chance of him having the monster.

Obviously this is a weapon you can't overuse. If I thought there was a higher than normal chance of him trapping for whatever reason, I'd follow your line and check.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you just call the flop, you really have to turn up the heat on the turn. That check makes me shudder, your hand is too vulnerable at this point.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? I have no reason to put him on an ace (wouldn't he have raised preflop?) or a queen for much the same reason. Also I have absolutely no reason to believe he has the backdoor diamond draw. Really the hand I most fear here is like a Q6o (or Qd 6d for worst case scenario), but so much more of his range is drawing dead or close to it that I chose to check in case he bet again with what is probably the worst hand on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I take your point. I was actually going to use the example of Ax and deleted it when I realised he was unlikely to have it (although I limp with Ax here quite a bit).

The problem is - what hand do you want him to make on the river? Even if he makes some underpair, he probably isn't going to call. He certainly isn't going to call more than 400, so even if you can cash in it's not much. Suppose he has a random nine like 95. Letting him make the queen is a disaster and if he makes the 9 or 5 you're getting nothing. I suppose you want him to bluff on the river with a worthless hand, but in my experience players don't do this as often as they should.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
I suppose you want him to bluff on the river with a worthless hand, but in my experience players don't do this as often as they should.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was the idea. Note, I don't do this sort of thing often. Normally I push preflop, but I decided that my hand was good enough and the stack sizes were exactly wrong to make pushing correct. And also most of the time I raise this flop.

[Unarmed]

I think you played the hand perfectly if you think there's any chance Villain is capable of C/Ring you on the turn with a draw/worse hand.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd have moved in preflop, but since you didn't...

[/ QUOTE ]

Look at the stack sizes, this is obviously wrong raising preflop might be correct, but pushing certainly isn't.


[/ QUOTE ]

You're wrong here I'm afraid, Durron. Pushing is a *very* viable option. There are 800 dead chips and your FE is HUGE. Also, the SB is only ~12xBB anyway so I'm not sure where you decided that the stacks were too large to consider such an option. You simply can't dismiss a push here.

Post flop you took a decent line, IMO. I think just betting the flop and/or turning up the heat on the turn isn't a bad idea, however. On the turn a very significant amount of chips are up for grabs and I'd want to take them down as chip extraction will be difficult unless the villian hits a big hand somehow on the river.

Yugoslav

[RobGW]

Durron,

I don't think a PF push is all that bad. You have a lot of FE. Chips stacks are $7100, 4500, and 3300 if he folds. A nice spot for you. Also consider that pushing here tells SB that he must fold all marginal hands to you in the future. That is a big deal for you. You get to keep your blinds and steal theirs. Next time SB limps to you you'll know that he is trapping and you can easily avoid it. It's called controlling the table with your big stack. It can be risky I know so I think image and the last few rounds have a lot to do with it. I am not saying its a clear push but only that its a viable option.

[Scuba Chuck]

Durron, I often take your line preflop. Especially when there's this much left to play deep stacked. I reserve the move to push for later when it can be more devastating to my unsuspecting opponent, and I don't want to get into a mini-raising war yet.

Anyway, I would bet the turn (and be sure to consider any important odds in your bet). If he reraises you allin, I think it's an insta-call, and be happy with it. Top pair in this situation is very powerful. I don't like giving away free cards here.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

You're wrong here I'm afraid, Durron. Pushing is a *very* viable option. There are 800 dead chips and your FE is HUGE. Also, the SB is only ~12xBB anyway so I'm not sure where you decided that the stacks were too large to consider such an option. You simply can't dismiss a push here.

[/ QUOTE ]

So I guess you don't like this hand then (the previous hand):

PokerRoom No-limit Texas Hold'em $20+$2 (real money)

Seat 1: BB ($5,390 in chips)
Seat 6: Hero ($6,110 in chips)
Seat 7: SB ($3,500 in chips)

Hero is Button with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.

ANTES/BLINDS
SB posts blind ($200), BB posts blind ($400).

PRE-FLOP
durron597 bets $1,000, 2 folds.

-----------
or this hand (the next hand):

PokerRoom No-limit Texas Hold'em $20+$2 (real money)

Seat 1: Button ($3,390 in chips)
Seat 6: Hero ($8,310 in chips)
Seat 7: BB ($3,300 in chips)

Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif

ANTES/BLINDS
Hero posts blind ($200), BB posts blind ($400).

PRE-FLOP
1 fold, Hero bets $8,110 and is all-in, 1 fold.

-----------
And then there's this hand, 2 hands later. The difference between this hand and the OP is the SB's stack size; above he had over 12xBB, here he's under 10. Plus it's just nice to mix up your play. Edit: also my 2nd card is much worse which makes me less inclined to play post flop (what happens if I flop a 4?)

PokerRoom No-limit Texas Hold'em $20+$2 (real money

Seat 1: SB ($3,590 in chips)
Seat 6: Hero ($8,710 in chips)
Seat 7: Button ($2,700 in chips)

Hero is BB with 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.

ANTES/BLINDS
SB posts blind ($200), Hero posts blind ($400).

PRE-FLOP
1 fold, SB calls $200, Hero bets $8,310 and is all-in, SB folds.

SHOWDOWN
durron597 wins $9,110.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
If he reraises you allin, I think it's an insta-call, and be happy with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course.

[ QUOTE ]
Top pair in this situation is very powerful. I don't like giving away free cards here.

[/ QUOTE ]

The thing is, I didn't want to win 800 chips off of him. I wanted to win as much of his stack as possible. He has given me no reason to think he has any sort of pair or draw; in fact his line could not be more weak.

The real question is, is it worth it to risk losing the 1200 in the pot for 800 more (that he's not guaranteed to bet) on the river?

Maybe I should have checked the turn to protect my hand. But I really think we're too deep to only be going for blinds and antes. A lot of times I'll start pushfesting too early, win a bunch of B&As, then double somebody up as a big dog and lose them all.

[durron597]

He had 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif and MHIG.

In retrospect I still think it was wrong not to bet the scary turn, despite his air river bluff.

[schwza]

i think pushing preflop is fine. you're going to get called very rarely there. you'd be risking 4.6k to win 800 - not too bad. i prefer a check though.

the flop call is fine. i would definitely bet the turn. if he bets the flop and c/r's the turn, you can fold confidently. if he calls, probably make a small vbet on a safe card. given that you checked the turn, i like a river call. no sense re-opening the betting when he's throwing away a lot of his losers.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
If he reraises you allin, I think it's an insta-call

[/ QUOTE ]

in my experience, people don't bet then c/r without a pretty strong hand.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If he reraises you allin, I think it's an insta-call

[/ QUOTE ]

in my experience, people don't bet then c/r without a pretty strong hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hm, you know, now that I think about this more I would probably put him on a hand like J6 with his line if he was to c/r the turn.

[egj]

I'm no expert, but I like your line, mostly for the reasons you mention. Your line also minimizes the amount you lose if you're behind. If he is getting tricky with KQ or something, he's not going to bet too much on the river for fear of losing you.

I also agree that many players will take a shot at it on the river with any two, given how weak you seem by how you have played the hand.

There's some danger in giving up the free card, but he most likely doesn't have that many outs. He *may* have the straight or flush draw, but there is no particular reason to believe that is likely.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

There's some danger in giving up the free card, but he most likely doesn't have that many outs. He *may* have the straight or flush draw, but there is no particular reason to believe that is likely.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's sort of the issue in question in my mind. The J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif is one of the worst cards in the deck in my mind. Of course, I have no idea if that gave him a draw (or finished a draw the times he has like Q9), but I have no evidence that he will bluff the river if I check behind the turn so I should bet.

However, Unarmed also made a very good point about checking the turn behind if he's capable of a bluff c/r. Tough decision, and I think the more cautious route is probably better given the unlikelihood of him having a draw.

[AliasMrJones]

This looks fine, but I'd bet the turn.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
This looks fine, but I'd bet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

You bet or check the turn depending on what % of the time you'll get C/R'd here by a hand you beat and what % of the time Villain will bluff the river.

Given most random opponents are tricky LAGs I like a check.

[durron597]

Hm, maybe at this level the turn is better off bet then, I didn't really regard this opponent as particularly tricky.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If he reraises you allin, I think it's an insta-call

[/ QUOTE ]

in my experience, people don't bet then c/r without a pretty strong hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hm, you know, now that I think about this more I would probably put him on a hand like J6 with his line if he was to c/r the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree completely. this line is much more likely from a hand that just got there rather than a hand that was already there on the flop.