The $55s are impossible (sorta long)

[Taraz]

(Disclaimer: Skip to the second paragraph unless you wanna read my whining)

This is demoralizing. I started out at the $6s and $11s close to a year ago and I've since moved up to the $22s and the $33s. I have had pretty decent success at every level although my sample is still ridiculously small, but every time I try to take a stab at the $55s I lose. It's getting rather sad now. I win a few $33s and I say, "Why don't I try one of these $55s out, people say the play isn't that much better." I play a couple, lose, and say "nuts to that" and move back down. I've finished OOTM 18 out of 22 tourneys and every single ITM finish was a third place. I realize 22 sng's is nothing and all of you 8-tablers out there have 14 buy-in downswings in 30 minutes, but I don't like seeing my bankroll take hits like that.

Now to my actual question: Are there any real and tangible adjustments that need to be made to play the $55s? I've been keeping my eye out and searching for what to do with those extra chips, but I'm not coming up with anything substantial. Everything I find just says that it's easier when you raise in level 1 and 2 and miss the flop because you have more chips left over and that the players are slightly better.

I still can't play suited connectors early, right? Should I just "play my game"? Maybe I'm overanalyzing my miniscule sample cause I'm mad and it's late, but I can't deal with losing (it's a little problem I have). Thanks in advance to everyone who replies . . .

[SammyKid11]

4-18 just isn't that bad, doesn't say anything about whether or not you're ready to play at a certain level. What does say something about it as that you're so upset about going 4-18...and the fact that you're haphazardly "stabbing" at the 55's. If you're beating the 33's consistently (over a sample set of at least 500) AND you have the bankroll for 55's, then give it a real shot - play 100 or so consistently. Then take stock of where you are.

[MegaBet]

The 55s are not impossible. I have a 42% ITM and 30% ROI there. I suggest you stay on the 33s until you feel real confident. Its hard to help you here without specific examples (maybe post a HH?).

Although I could be really selfish and suggest you stay there /images/graemlins/grin.gif but I won't.

[mlagoo]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a 42% ITM and 30% ROI there

[/ QUOTE ]

jesus.

how many tourneys?

[ZebraAss]

i suggest single tabling...at least until you get a hang of where to put pressure on the table

[MegaBet]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have a 42% ITM and 30% ROI there

[/ QUOTE ]

jesus.

how many tourneys?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not a lot...400 or so.

[ChoicestHops]

22 tournies: you already know the answer.

Whats the point of this post?

[The once and future king]

Hope you can handle the downswing headed your way.

[45suited]

Given this:

[ QUOTE ]
I realize 22 sng's is nothing and all of you 8-tablers out there have 14 buy-in downswings in 30 minutes, but I don't like seeing my bankroll take hits like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

and this:

[ QUOTE ]
but I can't deal with losing (it's a little problem I have).

[/ QUOTE ]

Why don't you just stick to the 33s where you are comfortable and successful? I mean, it's just poker. If it bothers you this much, is it really worth it? There isn't a law that says you have to keep moving up.

I don't mean that as in insult at all, I just mean play poker to make some money and increase your happiness. If the 55s are detracting from your happiness or peace of mind, just stay away from them.

[Slim Pickens]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have a 42% ITM and 30% ROI there

[/ QUOTE ]

jesus.

how many tourneys?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not a lot...400 or so.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's nothing. I have a 127.3% ROI and a 75% ITM at the 55's, and my sample size is way smaller than 400, so I win.

Really, you just have to play a little more poker and a little less statistically-driven card-bingo than at the 33's, all because of the extra 200 chips. Other than having to play Levels 3 and 4 in a 55 like Level 3 in a 33, there's not much difference.

[Big Limpin']

Taraz, my insta-reaction to [ QUOTE ]
I've finished OOTM 18 out of 22 tourneys and every single ITM finish was a third place

[/ QUOTE ] is that "scared money dont make money" and "you are a bubble pussy, or more pertinantly, you are sitting on your ass hoping everyone busts and you squeak ITM"...well, the 55s are plenty beatable, but realize that instead of 3 clued-in guys and 7 donks, its gonna be 7/3 the other way. These guys dont just go civil war and KO each other as qucik as you are used to.

But then i thought some more. You clearly want to get better, and you want to have a gameplan when you take your next stab. So, i'll take some time here to mention a few things that i feel are common oversights of ppls born and bred on the apeshit 800s:

And do note that i am *not* the best player around, or even close to it. But, i'm better than many, handily beat the 55s, and have been told im a good teacher. when i set my mind to making a meaningul post (rare) i feel they are worth reading.

BL's FOUR FREE TIPS:

#1
If you fold the first 4 orbits in a 22/33...you have t405
If you fold the first 4 orbits in a 55...you have t605

That is NOT to be taken as advice or reccomendation of a good strategy, just a simple observation. But if you are a little gunshy of pushing marginal edges, just realise that you will be able to pick the best hand from your first 40 instead of your first 30 (or whatever) to go with.

#2
The players will, for the most part, play in a fairly rational manner. That is to say that you can put them on a much tighter range of hands based on their actions. As such, once you develop/refine your observation skills, you will have a much better idea of where you stand in relation to what they have.

ex. In a 22, when theres a few limps to the BB, and he raises to 3BB...it means he has 2 face cards, or a pocket pair right down to 22. In a 55, same situation, that guy has had the option for a free flop, and has chosen to raise, but not enough to take the pot uncontested. He *knows* that he will be playing the hand out of position. You can put him on a range of AQ+/TT+, and be correct most of the time. Even when he holds other cards, it wont be much weaker (maybe AJ, KQ, 99)

another example. on a textured flop (say JsTc8s), when someone makes a bigassed overbet...ina 22, it means he has 2 cards in his hand, often having paired something. A big overbet in 55+ will more often than not be a semi-bluff, or a very strong made hand (set,2pr,TP+draw, etc)...Your TPTK is often a +EV call in lower levels. Its much less likely you are ahead in 55s (or, if he is semi-bluff, you arent ahead by much)


#3
Because of the (somewhat) deeper stacks, you will simply HAVE to develop some semblance of post flop skills. Its simply a matter of more pots going to flop in the middle levels (say 50/100 to 150/300), and more pots having action on multiple streets in the early levels (bet on flop, raise on flop, and they still have ammo for the turn/riv). I am pulling this out of my hat, but i'd bet that to beat the the 1000 chip SnGs, you must also be able to beat a mid-level NL ring (say, NL100, NL200?).


#4

FOLD EQUITY IS WAY MORE THAN AT 800s. Okay, it should be self explanitory, but most of these guys realize that calling 8BB pushes with KJo is not a recipe for success. Remember, most everyone here has beaten the 22s/33s. They, to a cetain extent, "get it". What this translates to is that you will not see as many hands go to showdown. IF someone stamps thier name on a pot, it is more than likely that the caller/reraiser has them beat. So, for the most part, meaningful rasies are repected, and you will see many more ppls drop their hand when you bet the pot. But, you will see many mroe meaningful rasies too. Not everytime someone bets will he have the goods. And niether will you, if you are playing right. But, make sure you leave yourself an out if its early. And when its later/bubble, your pushes wont be called as much as you are used to. Thats not a free pass to go apeshit with rag-rag over and over, but it is a factor when you have a decent hand, and 4BB, and you would rather just have 1.5BBs than have to deal them out. Poosh.

*********************************

Okay, im not sure how much that will help you, i dont mean to insinuate that you have weaknesses that this will help in, but these were the first 4 things i thought of to mention. Hope it helped.

I would reccomend that you 1) play some NL ring to develop post flop skills, and 2) play another 18 55s ONE TABLING, and *thinking* about what hand ranges a villain is likely to have, based on his actions so far in the hand. Take your time on decisions, make decision within 2 seconds (your gut), then take 5 more seconds to rehash all the info you have avaliable, and try to think of a better line. If you cant, then your guts was right, trust that, and go for it. Pretend you have been staked by a top name pro, and he is sitting behind you watching you play. And you dont want to do anything to embarrass yourself.

Play 50 and then see where you stand.

GL, BL'

[GtrHtr]

What an excellent post.

[valenzuela]

nice advice, I will use it whenever I move up to the 55s, btw for some reason ure posts make me laugh, maybe its ure avatar or something.

[curtains]

If you did great at the $33s over an extended period of time, the same should hold true at the $55s. If this isn't the case so far it's probably due to bad luck or psychological factors.

[durron597]

BL - POTW

(I'm not ambitious enough to say POTM, I don't read enuf posts)

[Jay36489]

When I went to the 55s the biggest thing I noticed was that I wasn't having enough patience in lvl 4 & 5. 1000 vs 800 chips makes a big difference as to when its time to start really being aggressive.

[1C5]

Nice post. Must be bored in Thompson /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[fnord_too]

Without reading the other comments...

To me more chips means I can play the first couple of rounds more like a ring game. That is, I can limp in position and call standard raises with a wide variety of hands, and play post flop. I wouldn't say that ring NL is a great game for me, but I have played a lot of it lately and am pretty comfortable playing multiple streets post flop, especially against most S&G players.

The only real down side is that by playing more hands early, you may get labled as loose, and may have a harder time stealing later. I have not noticed any effect of this kind yet, but I might just be oblivious to it.

If you are not good at playing with a deepish (for s&g's!) stack post flop, you can get in a lot of trouble here.

You may be having trouble with your bubble and post bubble aggression levels. Also, as you say, 22 S&G's is nothing. It could easily be sample size. Aslo, maybe the stakes are affecting your game.

I would suggest committing something like $550 to playing 10 straight. Mentally write the money off before you start, try to play your best game, and analyze all your big hands after the fact, even ones where you folded preflop. I know that is a big chuck of a 33 bankroll, but that is the minimum I would take a shot with. If you do onsies and twosies, you are just not giving yourself any room to acclamate to the structure, psychological effects of playing higher, and the different style of play (if there is an apprecialble difference). Plan for your shots. Mentally set aside money for them, and when you have enough take one and if it does not go well, regroup and figure out if the problem was in your play or just variance.

[tech]

Wow. Are you talking about the Party 55s? My experience is completely different.

[ QUOTE ]
realize that instead of 3 clued-in guys and 7 donks, its gonna be 7/3 the other way

[/ QUOTE ]

No way, unless you are defining "clued-in" as anything other than a total dumbass. I won't sit at a 55 table if it has more than three decent players.

[ QUOTE ]
The players will, for the most part, play in a fairly rational manner.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, I strongly disagree with this.

[ QUOTE ]
He *knows* that he will be playing the hand out of position. You can put him on a range of AQ+/TT+, and be correct most of the time. Even when he holds other cards, it wont be much weaker (maybe AJ, KQ, 99)

[/ QUOTE ]

Way, way too tight.

[ QUOTE ]
most of these guys realize that calling 8BB pushes with KJo is not a recipe for success.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wish. I routinely get called with much worse than that.

[ QUOTE ]
Remember, most everyone here has beaten the 22s/33s.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the most ridiculous statement in the entire post. Most of these players aren't winners at any level ... I guarantee it.

[ QUOTE ]
They, to a cetain extent, "get it".

[/ QUOTE ]

No they don't, except for a limited number of very good players.

Edit: Sorry BL, wasn't trying to be rude or anything. But man, I just have a totally different view over my 2000 games or so there. I am curious what others think.

[tech]

First of all, you haven't played enough games. With that said, I suspect that there are serious flaws in your late game play. Most of the 55 players are terrible late. IMO, a flawless push/fold/call game is sufficient to beat the 55s for a good clip. I know that my ROI went up a ton when I ironed out some problems I had in that area.

[Big Limpin']

i hope someone else flames you for having asscheeks loose enough that your own head fits between them.

If you have such disrespect for your opponents at the 55s, and that you are *soooooo* much on a higher level than "those retards", then why dont YOU post some more helpful tips for our intrepid OP who has asked why he stuggles at that level? You clearly "get poker" better then me, so i will pass the torch to you.

Discuss.

( <font color="white">also, i will place an open challenge to you for HU NL200-1000 ring, only condition is that results get posted in this thread </font> )

BL'

[Unarmed]

Know you really don't wanna step to dis
Really don't know why you talkin' [censored]
You 'bout to catch one right in the lip
It's about to be a what? Girlfight!

We bout to throw dem bows
We bout to swang dem thangs
It's 'bout to be a what? Girlfight!

[durron597]

Note to Big Limpin':

Don't post when drunk until AFTER getting skipperbob to teach you how. Feel free to do a search for pergesu posts if you don't believe me.

[yoadrians]

[ QUOTE ]
Taraz, my insta-reaction to [ QUOTE ]
I've finished OOTM 18 out of 22 tourneys and every single ITM finish was a third place

[/ QUOTE ] is that "scared money dont make money" and "you are a bubble pussy, or more pertinantly, you are sitting on your ass hoping everyone busts and you squeak ITM"...well, the 55s are plenty beatable, but realize that instead of 3 clued-in guys and 7 donks, its gonna be 7/3 the other way. These guys dont just go civil war and KO each other as qucik as you are used to.

But then i thought some more. You clearly want to get better, and you want to have a gameplan when you take your next stab. So, i'll take some time here to mention a few things that i feel are common oversights of ppls born and bred on the apeshit 800s:

And do note that i am *not* the best player around, or even close to it. But, i'm better than many, handily beat the 55s, and have been told im a good teacher. when i set my mind to making a meaningul post (rare) i feel they are worth reading.

BL's FOUR FREE TIPS:

#1
If you fold the first 4 orbits in a 22/33...you have t405
If you fold the first 4 orbits in a 55...you have t605

That is NOT to be taken as advice or reccomendation of a good strategy, just a simple observation. But if you are a little gunshy of pushing marginal edges, just realise that you will be able to pick the best hand from your first 40 instead of your first 30 (or whatever) to go with.

#2
The players will, for the most part, play in a fairly rational manner. That is to say that you can put them on a much tighter range of hands based on their actions. As such, once you develop/refine your observation skills, you will have a much better idea of where you stand in relation to what they have.

ex. In a 22, when theres a few limps to the BB, and he raises to 3BB...it means he has 2 face cards, or a pocket pair right down to 22. In a 55, same situation, that guy has had the option for a free flop, and has chosen to raise, but not enough to take the pot uncontested. He *knows* that he will be playing the hand out of position. You can put him on a range of AQ+/TT+, and be correct most of the time. Even when he holds other cards, it wont be much weaker (maybe AJ, KQ, 99)

another example. on a textured flop (say JsTc8s), when someone makes a bigassed overbet...ina 22, it means he has 2 cards in his hand, often having paired something. A big overbet in 55+ will more often than not be a semi-bluff, or a very strong made hand (set,2pr,TP+draw, etc)...Your TPTK is often a +EV call in lower levels. Its much less likely you are ahead in 55s (or, if he is semi-bluff, you arent ahead by much)


#3
Because of the (somewhat) deeper stacks, you will simply HAVE to develop some semblance of post flop skills. Its simply a matter of more pots going to flop in the middle levels (say 50/100 to 150/300), and more pots having action on multiple streets in the early levels (bet on flop, raise on flop, and they still have ammo for the turn/riv). I am pulling this out of my hat, but i'd bet that to beat the the 1000 chip SnGs, you must also be able to beat a mid-level NL ring (say, NL100, NL200?).


#4

FOLD EQUITY IS WAY MORE THAN AT 800s. Okay, it should be self explanitory, but most of these guys realize that calling 8BB pushes with KJo is not a recipe for success. Remember, most everyone here has beaten the 22s/33s. They, to a cetain extent, "get it". What this translates to is that you will not see as many hands go to showdown. IF someone stamps thier name on a pot, it is more than likely that the caller/reraiser has them beat. So, for the most part, meaningful rasies are repected, and you will see many more ppls drop their hand when you bet the pot. But, you will see many mroe meaningful rasies too. Not everytime someone bets will he have the goods. And niether will you, if you are playing right. But, make sure you leave yourself an out if its early. And when its later/bubble, your pushes wont be called as much as you are used to. Thats not a free pass to go apeshit with rag-rag over and over, but it is a factor when you have a decent hand, and 4BB, and you would rather just have 1.5BBs than have to deal them out. Poosh.

*********************************

Okay, im not sure how much that will help you, i dont mean to insinuate that you have weaknesses that this will help in, but these were the first 4 things i thought of to mention. Hope it helped.

I would reccomend that you 1) play some NL ring to develop post flop skills, and 2) play another 18 55s ONE TABLING, and *thinking* about what hand ranges a villain is likely to have, based on his actions so far in the hand. Take your time on decisions, make decision within 2 seconds (your gut), then take 5 more seconds to rehash all the info you have avaliable, and try to think of a better line. If you cant, then your guts was right, trust that, and go for it. Pretend you have been staked by a top name pro, and he is sitting behind you watching you play. And you dont want to do anything to embarrass yourself.

Play 50 and then see where you stand.

GL, BL'

[/ QUOTE ]

As usual, I'm a day late and a dollar short with my kudos. But this advice is just fantastic. Very well-written post - very, very helpful.

Thanks.

[tech]

I'm glad to see that you take criticism so well. I didn't say they were all idiots, just most of them. There are some very very good players there. You obviously have to play them differently than the rest. I promise you though ... if you don't think that 70% of the players at the Party 55s have huge flaws in their games, either (a) you haven't played enough games there or (b) you need to get better at reading players.

[Big Limpin']

Dully noted, i guess. Perhaps what i wrote was overreaction. But i really meant everything i said in that post. If someone disagrees with something in there, awesome, i will probably learn someting from the criticism. But when every 2nd sentence is torn to shreads, i can help but feel that as a personal attack.


To paraphrase Elaine Benis..."is it possible im not as good as i think i am?"

Let me ask you this Unarmed. Do you also disagree with the clauses that tech singled out? If you do, i will put much more credence on that than i did before.

BL"

[Bigwig]

The $55s are most certainly harder than the $33s. You just need to build an appropriate bankroll and stick it out. I'm sure others have said the same thing, but I'm too lazy to read the whole thread.

[ZeroPointMachine]

Disclaimer: I've just started at the 50's (50 or so)

My early impressions go something like this:

1-There are more "good" players at the 33's
2-The extra 1000 chips seems to inspire alot of FPS among the donks at the early levels.
3-Way more flop bluffs/semi-bluffs at the early levels.
4-Nobody seems to understand the difference between a 35BB and a 12BB stack. Big stacks tend to feed it back.
5-There is alot more room to outplay opponents on the bubble and in the money because you will often find yourself with a good size stack in relation to the blinds.

Other thoughts?

Anyone here play SNG's somewhere besides Party? Why is Party SNG so popular? I don't have an account there so I haven't tried them yet, only play at Stars right now in $10 SNG's.

On Stars you start with 1500 chips and blinds increase every 10 minutes.

What do you start with on Party and how do the blinds increase?

[DarrenX]

My guess is it's mostly psychological. I made a couple false starts when converting from the 30s to the 50s. Looking back I believe they don't play that much differently. I'd estimate the DPT (Donks Per Table) at the 33s and 55s to be similar, between 5-7 pretty consistently. I contribute my slow start to nerves about being OOTM, and based on your small sample size, I'd guess you're in a pretty similar boat. In the end my 50s stats exceeded my 30s, so there's hope...

The important thing is that your bankroll (and your mindset) is comfortable with being OOTM 18 out of 22 games at any given level, something most of us have experienced at one time or another.

Now the 109s- just avoid those at all costs (26% itm, -28% roi) /images/graemlins/shocked.gif /images/graemlins/blush.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
Let me ask you this Unarmed. Do you also disagree with the clauses that tech singled out? If you do, i will put much more credence on that than i did before.

BL"

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah, I just thought your reply was hilarious. /images/graemlins/grin.gif
(plus I like HU grudge matches)

I quite liked your original post, great stuff. I don't agree with it all, but whatever, I don't agree with half the stuff I wrote last week.

"Good player" just happens to be a subjective term, and you and Tech differ in your interpretation of it.

[Taraz]

I didn't expect to see that many replies. Thanks to everyone who took the time to give some advice.

I don't really think my late game bubble strategy is too bad, that's basically why I've been winning at the lower levels. I think that my biggest problem is what to do in levels 4 and 5 when there are still 7 or 8 people left. In the $22s and $33s it's usually down to 4 or 5 so I am pushing a lot and expecting to steal the blinds. But at the $55s I second guess my 5x push w/ A8o utg with so many people left to act behind me. So basically I end up folding a couple hands at the higher levels, somebody raises my blinds and all of a sudden I have 3xBB left. Either that or I get sucked out for all my chips on the bubble and I compose a post at 3am on the impossibility of the $55s . . .

[valenzuela]

"good player"...someone who folds 72o? someone who has won multiple WSOP bracelets? well I think thats the debate in the thread ...btw a HU match between the two guys with the best avatars would be nice, however the problem is the SB is out of position on party ring games, I propose a Stars freezeout.

[benfranklin]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone here play SNG's somewhere besides Party? Why is Party SNG so popular? I don't have an account there so I haven't tried them yet, only play at Stars right now in $10 SNG's.

On Stars you start with 1500 chips and blinds increase every 10 minutes.

What do you start with on Party and how do the blinds increase?

[/ QUOTE ]

At the Party $10/20/30 SnGs, you start with T800 and the blinds increase every 10 hands.

Players at Party are generally much more LAGgy than at Stars. An all-in and a call (or 2) on the first hand is nothing of note. It is not unusual to see 2-3 opponents gone by the end of level 2. (I played one a few days ago that was down to the bubble after the first hand of level 3, but that is unusual.)

Among other things, all of this results in an average SnG time of about 45 minutes, which does a lot for your hourly rate.

[ChuckNorris]

Edit: meant as a reply to OP, not especially to tech.

I have to agree with tech that BL sees a somewhat too dramatic difference between 33's and 55's. Certainly there are more not-so-bad and even good players, but still very few.

I'd say that you can except to get raised and bet at more postflop, you see more fancy plays than those good old calling stations. In a way your opponents are also more predictable at some situations, which can be good too. You can for example actually be pretty confident that your opponent will bet in a situation and thus decide to check/raise, where as in lower buy-ins the opponents are just too crazy to try to make any attempt to anticipate their actions.

There are situations where you actually can pretty confidently fold your TPTK or overpair (still rare though).

Often when it's down to 4 or less players all the donks have busted out and you actually may need to fight for your money, and you can actually analyze your opponents play rationally and give them some respect. You may get the feeling that you are really playing poker here.

Taking notes on opponents becomes more useful as there are less players overall and more decent or good players who you will see often.

I think the most important skill to keep improving though is most probably your brainless push/fold monkey skillz. You can miss out a lot of +EV pushes and make -EV folds/pushes to be a winning player on 33's, but less so at the 55's. So get eastbay's program, read or write some charts, calculate ICM by hand or whatever the way you want, but you must make yourself an even better all-in monkey than before.

Whatever, just play them and see for yourself. Hope this is at least somewhat useful.

[raptor517]

god the 55s are my bread and butter. there is truly some awful play there.. even worse than at the 109s and 215s.. if thats possible. holla

[ddubois]

[ QUOTE ]
Why is Party SNG so popular?

[/ QUOTE ]
http://www.vermillionmaldives.com/gallery/p1.jpg