Bottom set

[sfer]

10 handed 10/20.

Two donks limp meaning they have two cards (one will get to about 40% of flops, the other near 70%), a good aggressive player who reads hands well and who will open his range up a bit here raises in the CO, a 2+2er with whom I have a long history and who plays his hands fast and straightforwardly and who will read my hands well 3-bets on the button, I call with 6c 6d in the SB, BB folds, limpers call, CO calls. 5 players, 16 SBs.

Flop is Jc 9h 6h. What's my plan?

EDIT: Fixed my suits. Whoops.

[dark_horse]

bet, hope TAG raises. if he raises and it's heads up, call. c/r turn. he probably won't go for a stopngo, as he'd smell the ploy. my humble play.

[Entity]

I think you have to bet here. Convince them you have A/images/graemlins/heart.gifQ/images/graemlins/heart.gif.

[Brunger]

If you lead it looks like a flush draw or a set as you will be begging for a lead/3-bet. A check raise looks like you want to protect your weakish one pair type hand but cold calling 3 screams a pp so it would be difficult to put you on a hand with a jack in it. I think that I would check/raise the flop especially if donks like to call two cold just as likely as one on the flop.

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you have to bet here. Convince them you have A/images/graemlins/heart.gifQ/images/graemlins/heart.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]

I second. With the size of the pot (and the two donks being the most likely to have flopped a draw) you aren't getting rid of any draws on this flop anyway. So you might as well try to disguise your hand from the good players in hopes of collecting extra bets on the later streets (especially if you boat up).

I'd play the flop exactly like I had the nut flush draw, which would involve jamming as much as possible so long as it remains 5-handed.

[Nick C]

I think leading the flop kind of says "I have a set or the nut flush draw," and a set is more likely mathematically. (Or I think it is, anyway. I'm thinking Hero's preflop range is kind of narrow, after the call, but I believe sfer is looser than most 2+2ers. I'm not sure how much looser, though.)

However, I think I want to lead anyway. CO and Button don't sound like players who will necessarily auto-bet overcards on that flop versus four opponents, so there is some danger in checking (though there's a good chance CO will have something he wants to bet with his wider-than-usual range, and Button could have an overpair).

If the limpers are as loose postflop as they are preflop, then they may call two on the flop with hands that don't justify it. So that, along with the possibility that a bet will freeze up the flop action, is a reason to consider going for a checkraise. Also, a checkraise might represent a hand like 88 to CO and/or Button.

Hmm. Well, I'm pretty sure I would bet. But I'm not sure that's best.

I would check raise here, you know that the aggressive player will bet it if its checked around to him, you will definately get action.

I'm not sure which option is better, but you could :
1) bet/3bet, trapping in the donks for multiple bets. This may be perceived to be a set or possible flush draw.
2) c/r the 2+2er who will certainly bet, the donks are still getting good odds to call most hands and probably will still be trapped for multiple bets. This may also throw the 2+2ers read off believe that you do not have a hand as good as a set, which may induce extra action on later streets.
3) something else

[shant]

Play it like a flush draw. Bet-call. Then you can check the turn, and raise their anti-free card bet.

[ QUOTE ]
Play it like a flush draw. Bet-call. Then you can check the turn, and raise their anti-free card bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know how likely or worth worrying about it is, but couldn't the villain also be on the flush draw and/or take a free card with this line?

[hobbsmann]

SFer do you consider the preflop call standard? I'm going back and forth on good places to put in multiple bets cold preflop with small pairs. How do you play this hand if you don't flop a set?

[ QUOTE ]
SFer do you consider the preflop call standard? I'm going back and forth on good places to put in multiple bets cold preflop with small pairs. How do you play this hand if you don't flop a set?

[/ QUOTE ]

I know this was directed at OP, but it looks like it's going to be 5-handed, so he's getting about 5:1 on the PF call. With that much aggression PF, I think it's very likely to make up those bets when you set up. If he misses, it's mostly going to be check/fold.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
SFer do you consider the preflop call standard? I'm going back and forth on good places to put in multiple bets cold preflop with small pairs. How do you play this hand if you don't flop a set?

[/ QUOTE ]

I know this was directed at OP, but it looks like it's going to be 5-handed, so he's getting about 5:1 on the PF call. With that much aggression PF, I think it's very likely to make up those bets when you set up. If he misses, it's mostly going to be check/fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

For what it's worth, what SFer ended up getting was 13 1/2 to 2 1/2 on the call, which is different than 5.4 to 1. (The more bets you put in preflop when counting on implied odds, the more bets you have to make up postflop.)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
SFer do you consider the preflop call standard? I'm going back and forth on good places to put in multiple bets cold preflop with small pairs. How do you play this hand if you don't flop a set?

[/ QUOTE ]

I know this was directed at OP, but it looks like it's going to be 5-handed, so he's getting about 5:1 on the PF call. With that much aggression PF, I think it's very likely to make up those bets when you set up. If he misses, it's mostly going to be check/fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

For what it's worth, what SFer ended up getting was 13 1/2 to 2 1/2 on the call, which is different than 5.4 to 1. (The more bets you put in preflop when counting on implied odds, the more bets you have to make up postflop.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup. My guess is he's got to make up around 7BB postflop.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For what it's worth, what SFer ended up getting was 13 1/2 to 2 1/2 on the call, which is different than 5.4 to 1. (The more bets you put in preflop when counting on implied odds, the more bets you have to make up postflop.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup. My guess is he's got to make up around 7BB postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have the right idea.

It's about 7 small bets that he has to make up, though.

[meep_42]

Bet-3bet a button raise, but call a raise from anyone else, looking to check-raise the turn.

-d

[meep_42]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For what it's worth, what SFer ended up getting was 13 1/2 to 2 1/2 on the call, which is different than 5.4 to 1. (The more bets you put in preflop when counting on implied odds, the more bets you have to make up postflop.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup. My guess is he's got to make up around 7BB postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have the right idea.

It's about 7 small bets that he has to make up, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of the time I see 10:1 effective odds being needed for this kind of call pre-flop. (especially on a drawy board such as this one) -- that means he needs about 12SB, which is still easily doable.

-d

[hobbsmann]

[ QUOTE ]

Most of the time I see 10:1 effective odds being needed for this kind of call pre-flop. (especially on a drawy board such as this one) -- that means he needs about 12SB, which is still easily doable.

-d

[/ QUOTE ]
Meep what do you mean by needing 10:1 effective odds?

[meep_42]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Most of the time I see 10:1 effective odds being needed for this kind of call pre-flop. (especially on a drawy board such as this one) -- that means he needs about 12SB, which is still easily doable.

-d

[/ QUOTE ]
Meep what do you mean by needing 10:1 effective odds?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're 7.5:1 to flop a set, but you will lose sometimes with a set, so you need better odds to purely go for set value. The number i've heard on the boards a lot is 10:1, but i'm willing to conceed it to 9-9.5:1, not that it makes a huge difference.

-d

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Most of the time I see 10:1 effective odds being needed for this kind of call pre-flop. (especially on a drawy board such as this one) -- that means he needs about 12SB, which is still easily doable.

-d

[/ QUOTE ]
Meep what do you mean by needing 10:1 effective odds?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're 7.5:1 to flop a set, but you will lose sometimes with a set, so you need better odds to purely go for set value. The number i've heard on the boards a lot is 10:1, but i'm willing to conceed it to 9-9.5:1, not that it makes a huge difference.

-d

[/ QUOTE ]

To shift the discussion slightly, there are some possible preflop complications to take into account, also. SFer got 13 1/2 to 2 1/2 on his call, but if one or both of the preflop limpers had folded, or CO (or one of the limpers) had capped, that would have cut into SFer's odds.

To be honest, I probably would have folded preflop. I doubt SFer even considered that, though, and he's better than I am. Actually (taking postflop skill into account), this could be a situation where my best play would be to fold, while SFer's best play is to call.

[bobbyi]

Definitely bet the flop.

[dark_horse]

i'm folding preflop too.

[adsman]

Ed Miller had a hand quiz that was similar to this, with a small set in a large pot on a 2 flush board OOP. He advocated going for the slowplay on the flop to let players who are behind catch up by making second-best hands. His arguement for not worrying about the flush draw was that the flush draw was in until the end anyway - between the set and the flush it's whoever get's there first. The other players are the ones padding the pot for the set and the flush draws so you want to keep them in there.
Obviously whatever happens you go apeshit on the Turn.

[sfer]

10 handed 10/20.

Two donks limp meaning they have two cards (one will get to about 40% of flops, the other near 70%), a good aggressive player who reads hands well and who will open his range up a bit here raises in the CO, a 2+2er with whom I have a long history and who plays his hands fast and straightforwardly and who will read my hands well 3-bets on the button, I call with 6c 6d in the SB, BB folds, limpers call, CO calls. 5 players, 16 SBs.

Flop is Jc 9h 6h. I bet, donk1 drops, donk2 calls, CO calls, button raises. Do I re-pop now or blow my wad on the turn?

[krimson]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop is Jc 9h 6h. I bet, donk1 drops, donk2 calls, CO calls, button raises. Do I re-pop now or blow my wad on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

I say 3-bet here because of our position. We have no guarantee that a c/r will work on the turn, and it getting checked through would suck bad value wise.

Plus i'm not sure that we're going to get more value by c/r'ing the turn. If we call here and c/r off the button on the turn then we might fold donk2 and CO facing them with 2 big, and only get 2 big bets from the button, as opposed to just betting into the field and getting 3 calls.

[Silky Johnston]

bet call

bet 3-bet

bet

say 'owned' when pot ships your way

laugh when button presses 'show cards' for AA and KK

-klepton

[captain_swing]

I definately 3 bet the flop. I think the stop and go will likely freeze the overpair. The 3 bet still could represent the flush draw. Take the value now.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
What's my plan?


[/ QUOTE ]

stand on the gas pedal

[Fat Nicky]

I think 3-betting will net us the most $$$ as out position relative to the pre-flop raiser sucks. So, 3-bet, hope those that called 1 bet on the flop will call 2 more and then be willing to call 1 BB on the turn.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
Do I re-pop now or blow my wad on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mean stop/going the turn or c/ring? IMO a turn c/r likely blows middle-monkies away, and a stop-n-go give 'em a cheap turn peak, one that they may have very well have paid for. You've got 2 guys trapped in a huge pot, so I say 3-bet the flop. Also button could have a hand like A /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/heart.gif here and want a freebie. Keep on the gas.

[meep_42]

There are a lot of hands that the guys trapped in the middle will call 2 more SBs for that they won't call 1 or 2 BBs for on the next round. Also, it's not inconceivable that Button is going for a free card, which you don't like at all. He's probably not betting less than AA-JJ, AJ on the turn against 4 players (unless he catches an A-Q or /images/graemlins/heart.gif to improve), so I think you need to keep the pressure on.

If one of the bad players in the middle would have raised, I'd be more likely to check-raise the turn as it would trap more players and it would be less likely to check through on the turn.

The only problem is that the only real hands button could put you on after 3-betting are AQ/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 66, 99, and JJ because your SB-call of 3-bets pf narrows your hands considerably. (QTs is out of this range)

-d

[Bluffoon]

Three bet now. There are alot of cards that can come on the turn that can ruin this hand. I like to get my bets in now while i am reasonably sure my hand is best. Save your slowplays for the nuts. This is only bottom set in a four way pot on a highly coordinated board.

[callmedonnie]

I come out betting and hope to get raised. I play this one fast against this big a field. I don't care if the good players put me on a hand. If they know I have a set they should also know I'm not going anywhere, and I have one more out to hit boat than they have have for flush (if that's what they have).

The three bettor may have a big overpair in which case you may stand to make some money off him here. The first raiser can just have a couple of high cards because his move looks like an isolation bet. too bad for him.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
The first raiser can just have a couple of high cards because his move looks like an isolation bet. too bad for him.

[/ QUOTE ]

An isolation bet? Please explain.

[callmedonnie]

Two loose players limp preflop. He raises to encourage folds behind him, and then he gets to play the hand with two pretty poor players. what's wrong with that?

[chief444]

As a rule of thumb I usually don't xxxx around in a pot this big. Also, don't you think button would see a stop and go here as a pretty strong hand? Point being, he may not raise the turn for you anyway. Or were you thinking check/raise?

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
Two loose players limp preflop. He raises to encourage folds behind him, and then he gets to play the hand with two pretty poor players. what's wrong with that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Its fine, but chances are he's doing it with a hand. By this argument any raise is really an isolation raise. If he is raising light he's not going to screw around once he gets 3-bet and the sb calls.

[droolie]

[ QUOTE ]
10 handed 10/20.

Two donks limp meaning they have two cards (one will get to about 40% of flops, the other near 70%), a good aggressive player who reads hands well and who will open his range up a bit here raises in the CO, a 2+2er with whom I have a long history and who plays his hands fast and straightforwardly and who will read my hands well 3-bets on the button, I call with 6c 6d in the SB, BB folds, limpers call, CO calls. 5 players, 16 SBs.

Flop is Jc 9h 6h. I bet, donk1 drops, donk2 calls, CO calls, button raises. Do I re-pop now or blow my wad on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

How much do we want to protect our hand? Is it worth giving up some bets now?

If you just call there will probably be 12BB in the pot going into the turn. If you are very confident button will bet a turn C/R will get the gutshots and possibly low hearts out (if the turn in a heart). You have terrific position to do this, the pot is quite large, the board is moderately scary so I would probably try to maximize my winning chances and not get greedy on the flop.

Going for a flop raise will certainly build a bigger pot though. The good part about raising the flop is that you are likely to be put on a heart draw and might get a cap by the LP raiser if he has a big PP which makes a huge pot when you hand is best and holds up.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
As a rule of thumb I usually don't xxxx around in a pot this big. Also, don't you think button would see a stop and go here as a pretty strong hand? Point being, he may not raise the turn for you anyway. Or were you thinking check/raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll tell you what I was thinking. One, obviously I was scanning the flop for a 6, but also that if the action is tame and the action somewhat safe, I can sometimes peel on the flop with the pot that big. The flop texture, however, is great for me. With two hearts, I can basically do exactly as Rob and others said and play my hand like a huge draw, which means getting 4-bets in on the flop. I'll do this often with the nut flush draw or a flush draw and a pair or a set. The button knows this. Further, the button might view the hand as unprotectable on the flop and will happily raise with a variety of hands hoping that I 3-bet and face the field with 2 cold. The benefit is that I can now 3-bet and still potentially get excess turn action since I will sometimes 3-bet, get capped, and still lead the turn with something like Ah Qh and I think I might have 3 Ace outs. Alternatively, if I 3-bet and the button calls, I can still might get a lot of turn action from an overpair since he might call the flop 3-bet intending to induce a turn bet from me that he can raise anyway. So here's an instance where the flop texture naturally disguises my hand if I just don't get tricky and start spraying immediately.

Here's the rest:

10 handed 10/20.

Two donks limp meaning they have two cards (one will get to about 40% of flops, the other near 70%), a good aggressive player who reads hands well and who will open his range up a bit here raises in the CO, a 2+2er with whom I have a long history and who plays his hands fast and straightforwardly and who will read my hands well 3-bets on the button, I call with 6c 6d in the SB, BB folds, limpers call, CO calls. 5 players, 16 SBs.

Flop is Jc 9h 6h. I bet, donk1 drops, donk2 calls, CO calls, button raises, I 3-bet, donk2 calls, button 4-bets, I call, donk2 calls.

Turn is the 4c. I bet, donk2 calls, button raises, I 3-bet, donk2 now folds, button calls.

River bricks and goes bet/call and obviously MHIG.

[chief444]

NH Dave and good post.

[shant]

Excuse my first line in this thread, I thought you were looking for lines to disguise your hand from the aggressive players. If you weren't, flooring it through the hand is the right way to go.

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
-klepton

[/ QUOTE ]
Way to kill that gimmick account.