Betting Amounts in NL

Sorry if this is the wrong forum, but this is probably a beginner's question.

I want to find out if there is a "normal" betting amount in NL. It's hard to explain, I want to know like if you start off the betting preflop, do you bet 3x BB or more than that? I just finished reading Getting Started in Hold 'Em and from what I read, it seems to say to bet 4x-5x BB when you open betting. On the contrary, before I started reading the books I took notes from what I saw on TV and they usually would start off betting with 3x BB. Also, if anyone limps behind you, should you bet more than normal?

Also, when raising someone, normal raise seems to be 3x what they bet, correct? And when you bet preflop, on the flop you should be 2x what you bet before?

I'm sorry if this is in an FAQ I missed. I tried a search, but I didn't find anything.

[ubercuber]

I'm not very experienced but have had some sucess with NL, as well as disasters. What I have read and heard is pretty much in line with you...3-5x BB pf, but 1/2 pot and pot sized bets post flop. PF add the amount your opponents put in to your bet so say you go with 4xBB this hand you add the amount the raiser ahead of you put in to that total. Main thing to realize is that generally you like to win preflop or on the flop, or at least have a good idea where you stand...you need to put in whatever it costs to that end while considering the size of the pot and the strength of your hand, and other stuff that your book probably covered. Hopefully someone more knowledgably than me can add their 2 cents, like I said I don't have much experience with NL. Good luck.

[manpower]

This sounds about right. Open raise for 3-5xbb is pretty standard in ring games. Bet half the pot to the pot on subsequent streets.

And is that uber(rubiks)cuber?

[pottie]

What you see on tv is more tournament play and when the blinds get high the raises are generally about 3x BB. 4 BB's plus a BB for each limper before you is fine in small stakes. Continuation bets on flop 3/4 to pot bets. To raise another bet 3x is fine but not when 0.25 is bet into a pot of $3, then raise the pot.

Read through the hands posted in the small stakes no limit forum - you'll get the hang of it very quickly.

Cheers and good luck

[Cooker]

I agree with most of this. You want to open for 4 BB plus 1 for each limper most of the time. I would vary this somewhat on my premium hands depending on the table. If there is a very loose opponent that will call very big raises with hands like A7o and KTs (and I find these more often than you would think, heck I even found a guy that would reraise with hands like ATo once), then make a much bigger raise with AA,KK,QQ, and AK and hope to get called.

I would add that if you have less than around 10 BB move in after any limper if you plan to raise it and probably just move in if you plan to come in for a raise at all. The idea behind this is that if you raise 4-6 BB with AK for example, then miss the flop, what can you do? If its checked to you, then you better move in anyway, but you have very little fold equity because of your small stack. If someone bets ahead of you, you will wish you had moved in preflop to see all 5 cards.

After the flop, reasonable bets are a fraction of the pot about half the pot or bigger. If someone bets about the pot, a sensible raise is 3-5 times that bet. If someone bets the minimum, a sensible raise is to bet the pot (adding in their bet of course). If someone min bets after I check and then everyone folds to me, I would make a pot sized reraise with most hands depending on what I think of the player and whether or not I have used this move recently. If the guy regularly min bets, which is a sign of a terrible player, then I would make this move often, if this is the first min bet the guy has made since I sat at the table with him 2 hours ago, I would fold anything but the nuts or a strong draw to the nuts (I probably wouldn't even draw at a flush or OESD with a pair on board here).

Thanks for the help. I had never really considered about betting according to the pot size post-flop, I had always considered betting in terms of what I bet last time, but with multiple callers I'm sure betting in terms of pot size is right. There may be some correlation between betting in terms of what you previously bet and betting in terms of the pot, I'll look into it.

When people limp and you raise 4 BB plus 1 bet for every limper, does that mean if say 2 people limp, you would be calling the blind and betting 6 BB, or would calling the blind include your bet, so you could be betting 5 BB? I just want to clarify this.

Thanks again, everyone on this site is great and very open to help beginners, I really appreciate it.

[SheridanCat]

[ QUOTE ]
I had never really considered about betting according to the pot size post-flop, I had always considered betting in terms of what I bet last time


[/ QUOTE ]

One serious advantage NL has to limit is that, as the bettor, you can manipulate the pot odds being offered to your opponents. You can make the pot the proper size so that their calls with drawing hands will be incorrect. If you bet half the pot, say, you can make calls by flush draws incorrect because the pot odds are no longer there.

Regards,

T

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
I want to find out if there is a "normal" betting amount in NL. It's hard to explain, I want to know like if you start off the betting preflop, do you bet 3x BB or more than that? I just finished reading Getting Started in Hold 'Em and from what I read, it seems to say to bet 4x-5x BB when you open betting. On the contrary, before I started reading the books I took notes from what I saw on TV and they usually would start off betting with 3x BB. Also, if anyone limps behind you, should you bet more than normal?

[/ QUOTE ]

I only skimmed the replies -- they all look valid -- but one point that really merits emphasis is that it depends tremendously on the game your playing in. At risk of being glib or simplistic, you want to bet the maximum amount you think will get the number of callers that you want. GSIH talks about that concept -- or more generally, making the maximal bet that people will call. And Harrington and others extend it a bit to say that with big pairs or two very high cards, you generally want to limit the pot to one or two opponents.

In Pacific 5c-10c, I can open-raise to $1 or more and expect several callers -- so I do that. (I might even just push in my whole $1 to $2 buyin!) Raising to 30c just because 3x is often given as the "standard" raise is just wrong; you might as well limp in. OTOH, I'm still getting a feel for reading the game at Foxwoods $1-$2 but at times raising to $15 has chased everyone from the pot. (Not usually -- but at times once they've seen me not play a hand for two hours.)

So while it's perfectly valid to say that your standard raise should usually be 3x to 5x the big blind, it really depends on the game.

[Cooker]

I intend the entire bet you put in to be 4BB + 1BB for each limper. If 2 people limp and I want to raise because I have AK for example, I would raise 5 BB making the total bet 6BB. I think this is a distinction between "raise" and "raise to". In my previous post I meant "raise to" throughout, although I believe I always simply put raise.

[ubercuber]

[ QUOTE ]
This sounds about right. Open raise for 3-5xbb is pretty standard in ring games. Bet half the pot to the pot on subsequent streets.

And is that uber(rubiks)cuber?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, Rubiks. I am pretty geeky when you get right down to it. But I am not very fast compared to most, in fact I really don't qualify as a speedcuber (average 1 minute or less) I average about 65-70 seconds, best is 48 seconds.

[manpower]

[ QUOTE ]
In Pacific 5c-10c, I can open-raise to $1 or more and expect several callers -- so I do that. (I might even just push in my whole $1 to $2 buyin!) Raising to 30c just because 3x is often given as the "standard" raise is just wrong; you might as well limp in.

[/ QUOTE ]
Excelent post, and a point that has gone unmentioned so far. For low limit games this is absolutely the best practical advice.

[manpower]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, Rubiks. I am pretty geeky when you get right down to it. But I am not very fast compared to most, in fact I really don't qualify as a speedcuber (average 1 minute or less) I average about 65-70 seconds, best is 48 seconds.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's cool man, I got into a few years ago and it proved a pretty sweet party trick. I lost my cube and haven't touched one for 6 months or so, but used to be in about the same time bracket as you using a rough petrus method.

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
You can make the pot the proper size so that their calls with drawing hands will be incorrect. If you bet half the pot, say, you can make calls by flush draws incorrect because the pot odds are no longer there.

[/ QUOTE ]
Once again, I disagree with this. You can't say you have made calling with a draw incorrect, because you have to consider implied odds. If you never pay off after any scare card, you are vulnerable to being bluffed frequently. In fact, it may be the case that you have the nuts on the turn, but most river cards are scare cards, completing some large flush or straight draw.

When I am confident that my opponent has a big hand and will pay me off, I will happily call a 1/2 pot bet with position and a gutshot to the nut straight. It is very hard to protect yourself from this while getting value from your big hands and not folding too much to bluffs.

[HddnR]

I find this discussion on betting amounts helpful.

I need some help on when to bet post flop. Should you look strictly at outs vs pot odds? Assuming a preflop bet is made of 3-6x BB.

Some examples;

if you have a big pair and the flop does not improve your hand but there is no flush or straight draws.

- I say bet or move all in with a small stack but I also am worried about someone else having a pocket pair and catching a set.

if you have a big pair and the flop does not improve your hand and there is a flush or straight possible.

- If it is checked to me and I am last to act I say bet or move all in with a short stack. If someone bets ahead of me should I call, re-raise or fold. If it is checked to me but I am not the last to act what to do?


- If there is three cards of the same suit on the flop and someone bets ahead of me should I am assume they have a flush? Is it safe to call the bet if one of my hole cards matches the suits on the board?

if you have a big pair and the flop does not improve your hand but brings a higher card.

- My initial reaction is to assume they have my pair beat. If I raised preflop and they called I have to assume they have at least one big card. So if they make a bet ahead of me I feel folding is the right play.

My thinking when having a big pair is that it can still be beat and basically I need to improve to trips, full house or four of kind to have a "made" hand. I do not necessarily need to improve on the flop but need to make good decisions on when to continue. Basically I am having trouble with knowing when my hand is likely to be the best hand.

I know poker is situational dependent and the usual answer is "it depends". I am looking for a most of the time type guideline based on experience, odds and percentages.

Thanks in Advance.

Hmm I thought I posted back on this a couple days ago, but I guess I didn't.

SheridanCat, thanks for that bit of knowledge, I wasn't thinking about betting post flop that way, but it makes total sense. Should you also factor in how many chips your opponent has? Like say you think they have a straight or flush draw on the flop, if you bet around half the pot, which would around half their chip stack, would that be enough to cause them to fold? Other times if they had a bigger stack they would possibly call you. It seems like you have to consider how many chips they have along with the pots odds, right?

AKQJ10, that is a great point. I will definately experiment with that to maximize the money put into the pot.

Cooker, thanks for clearing that up. =)

Are there any books that discuss more on this topic? I would be really interested in reading them. I bought the 4 books suggested for beginners. I'm still taking notes on GSHE, so let me know if they talk about this in any of the other ones or if I would need to buy a different book.

[RollaJ]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry if this is the wrong forum, but this is probably a beginner's question.

I want to find out if there is a "normal" betting amount in NL. It's hard to explain, I want to know like if you start off the betting preflop, do you bet 3x BB or more than that? I just finished reading Getting Started in Hold 'Em and from what I read, it seems to say to bet 4x-5x BB when you open betting. On the contrary, before I started reading the books I took notes from what I saw on TV and they usually would start off betting with 3x BB. Also, if anyone limps behind you, should you bet more than normal?

Also, when raising someone, normal raise seems to be 3x what they bet, correct? And when you bet preflop, on the flop you should be 2x what you bet before?

I'm sorry if this is in an FAQ I missed. I tried a search, but I didn't find anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

To make it simple:
PREFLOP:
bet 3.5 times the BB, add 1xBB for each limper.....thatll be a pot sized raise
FLOP:
bet 3/4 to full pot
TURN/RIVER:
bet 1/2 pot to all in, depending on what your goal is with the bet