215s - Standard Stop and Go?

[Unarmed]

Villain is bullying.
BB is extremely tight.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t5215)
Hero (t910)
BB (t1295)
UTG (t1505)
MP (t1075)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t500</font>, Hero calls t400, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

[tigerite]

Very standard I think

[jeffraider]

Very nice!

[ChuckNorris]

It isn't standard, since you are not closing the action preflop. I would go all-in pf to keep BB out of the pot.

[Ian J]

So, if I'm reading right, you'll have T410 to bet the flop with. I think if that's the case then you may as well push preflop because you're certainly crushing his range and you'd hate for the BB to call here. With say T1100 to start the hand, I think this would be better.

[durron597]

This is a clear push. I don't want the BB to come in, and I want the button to call me with his crap so that I can more than double up.

[TheDrone]

My thoughts exactly.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
So, if I'm reading right, you'll have T410 to bet the flop with. I think if that's the case then you may as well push preflop because you're certainly crushing his range and you'd hate for the BB to call here. With say T1100 to start the hand, I think this would be better.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this. If you both whiff, he's getting correct odds to call, and so I'm not sure how much FE you buy yourself against the initial bettor by trying the stop and go, and closing out the BB from trying to come in getting 4:1 PF seems like a good idea to me. (I guess BB isn't really going to call all that often, so maybe that's not such a big concern. I still don't think the stop and go gets you much here, though.)

[wuwei]

Everyone who is arguing it's a pf push due to the BB, can you elaborate on the range of hands that an "extremely tight" BB will call for 300 of his 1300 stack with two opponents already involved? Then compare this to the range with which he calls a push.

[Ian J]

I'm in agreement with you that you're almost certainly going to be HU a majority of the time. However, my agrgument is that the stop n go is virtually rendered useless here with this stack size. I suppose there is also an off chance that the BB would fold a hand that you really want him to fold if you push rather than calling. i.e. 77 or AQ.

[lastchance]

This is a very clever move...

Excuse my stupidity, but what is a Stop N Go, how is it performed, and at what levels does it become important to know? I hear of it alot..

Thanks!

[Iamafish]

Why stop and go here?

[Paul2432]

[ QUOTE ]
Excuse my stupidity, but what is a Stop N Go, how is it performed, and at what levels does it become important to know? I hear of it alot..

Thanks!

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a play where you call a raise in the BB with the intention of pushing on any flop. The best time to do it is when you hold a medium to small pair and you suspect your opponent hold overcards. If you move all-in preflop your opponent will have pot odds to call. If you wait to move in on the flop and your opponent misses (which he will ~2/3 of the time) your opponent will often fold. This lets you win the pot anytime the turn or river would have beaten you.

Paul

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]
However, my agrgument is that the stop n go is virtually rendered useless here with this stack size.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying that what we'll have left is too small in relation to the button's stack to ever get him to fold the flop? I'm not sure that is true... if he's agro enough to push a lot of hands there, it's awful hard to call a flop push with something like 93o after you whiff.

I would agree that he's never folding the flop if he catches a piece. If he only folds when we're ahead on the flop, is a stop n go the best play here? We're a ~75% favorite at that point.

Or is that assumption off?

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

Are you saying that what we'll have left is too small in relation to the button's stack to ever get him to fold the flop? I'm not sure that is true... if he's agro enough to push a lot of hands there, it's awful hard to call a flop push with something like 93o after you whiff.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he's aware enough to be aggro, he's probably aware that you're likely pulling a stop and go and that he'll frequently be getting a correct price to draw to six outs when he whiffs. You're right, I had missed that the BB is tight and is unlikely to come along, but I think the stop and go isn't going to help much here. I guess it doesn't hurt much either.

[curtains]

Honestly it probably matters very little what you do here. The BB will call pretty rarely whether you raise or not, and only slightly more if you don't raise, at least I think so. Meanwhile there is always the slight glimmer of a chance that you get the button to fold preflop.

These two factors probably cancel out. When this is the case I usually go for the more straightforward play, which is to just move allin preflop.

[morgan180]

I think you're remaining chips aren't enough to get him to fold on the flop. I think you're probably going to get called here most of the time in either spot just based on pot odds and his stack size - so i go for the simplest move - just pushing.

[Shakespeare]

Thanks for posting this, I have learnt something today. I really like your play and would have played it exactly the same, however I didnt even consider the BB, so I now have changed my mind to the preflop push.

[The Yugoslavian]

Meh. You're not really going to gain all that much post-flop here with a stop n go. If you had a few more chips perhaps it'd be more effective. The BB however now has tremendous pot odds (even though he can't really spare the chips) and I'd hate to see him expand his playable range here by 5% of hands. He's getting like 3 to 1 or something ludicrous and you've shown weakness.

I'd just push but I'm not sure it matters a ton here.

Yugoslav

[PrayingMantis]

I don't see the point of stop and going here.

a) It doesn't matter much with the stack sizes, because you have very little FE post flop, so it's not like you can really make button fold too much here. The purpose of normal S&amp;G is to put enough pressure on the raiser in order to make him fold some hands before he has a chance to see turn and river. Having a big enough stack is usualy essenatial.

b) If button is bullying now with a wide range, AJ is a very clear favorite against him. Putting all the money in when you're ahead, PF, and as the short stack (i.e, simply trying to double up) is very good for you. No need to be tricky. In this sense, a stop and go might make a bit more sense if you had some garbage, and by this strange flat call PF you might actually make button suspect you have a monster of something, and by that could (very little chance) make him fold a somewhat better hand post-flop.

c) You are risking BB seeing a relatively cheap flop with a marginal hand. If you say BB is tight, and his stack is too small, so this is not a real fear, but why get fancy and then regret it?

Bottom line, I don't like. Play simple: push.

[Unarmed]

Alright, my slider was all the way to the right PF, but lately I've been taking a second to think, hmmm, does a SNG make more sense here? If I have zero FE PF and lack a big pair, it usually does. The presence of BB screws this situation up a bit, but frankly, there were no hands he would call/push here that would have folded to a push. Actually, there are no hands that I would call with there either that I fold to a push. Honestly, I LIKED the presence of the tight BB here because it made it look like I wanted another customer for my AA.

So anyway, it seemed I had nothing to lose by trying the SNG, so I did. We can argue that there really isn't any point in doing it, but I don't think we can argue that its worse than pushing PF. Anyway, he sat and sat and ran his timer down on the 78Q flop and finally called with KT and rivered a straight. YAY! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

So anyway, it seemed I had nothing to lose by trying the SNG, so I did.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
78Q flop and finally called with KT and rivered a straight. YAY! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but you WANT him to call with KT on a 78Q flop. The only hand you want him to fold in that situation is like 55.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]

Yes, but you WANT him to call with KT on a 78Q flop. The only hand you want him to fold in that situation is like 55.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the poker lesson D, the check's in the mail. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[ChrisV]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Yes, but you WANT him to call with KT on a 78Q flop. The only hand you want him to fold in that situation is like 55.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the poker lesson D, the check's in the mail. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually (providing I'm understanding your sarcasm properly, Unarmed) you're both wrong. You want him to fold KT on that flop. His EV is 0.240, which gives him equity in the final pot of 485 and he only has to call 410. That's before we even get into ICM considerations.

There are problems with the stop and go:

(1) The dream scenario, where they fold 22 on the flop KT8, or something, may not come up at all. Witness this hand where the guy called with king high - presumably he'd be calling with a pair as well.

(2) There are scenarios that come up often that are bad for you. Don't forget, the big stack is bullying, so he could have virtually anything. Him folding 87 on an AK3 flop, for example, sucks - it represents a loss of 380 chips and a fair sized ICM loss as well. This scenario is a fair bit more common than your dream scenario.

I have a post floating around my head about stop and gos, the most abused play in SNGs - not sure if I'll get time to write it out.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the poker lesson D, the check's in the mail. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/cool.gif i R ub3r.

Seriously, there has been a lot of debate over the last year on 2+2 about the stop and go and one of the things that I found most true is that there are many situations where you really don't mind your opponent calling. I mean, say the board had been A high and your opponent folded his KT because he "put you on an ace". That's 400 less chips that should have been yours.

Really, the stop and go a lot of times is only causing folds where you don't really want them (except to reduce variance I guess).

[puzzlemoney]

Noobish question here that nobody has mentioned: What if he bets the flop? Can you get away from nearly 4:1 odds vs. a bullying opponent?

Will he bet this so rarely that it doesn't matter? If he's going to call a bet, won't a good opponent bet here to see if you still like your hand?

[tigerite]

How's he going to bet the flop when Unarmed is first to act..

[puzzlemoney]

D'oh!

Okay, I'm really not that much of a noob... But I sure managed to confuse myself somehow.

...Never mind, then. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[tigerite]

No worries. I made a fool of myself with that chip count and odds thing the other day, after all /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
These two factors probably cancel out. When this is the case I usually go for the more straightforward play, which is to just move allin preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

What the hell is wrong with you? Who says "just move allin preflop."


PUSH (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=2821605&amp;page=0&amp;view=colla psed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=1) - Forum jargon for moving “All-in.”

[steeser]

The Stop and Go has become so overused that it rarely ever works, and somebody with AQ or AK will nearly always call you in this situation, even if the flop comes with 3 rags.

[curtains]

You dont want him to call with KT on a flop like that, thats the whole point of the play.

[curtains]

ChrisV I've written many times about how incorrectly people use the stop+go. It should be used in very very rare situations IMO, instead of like half the time your BB gets raised as it sometimes seems on 2+2.