preflop + flop nutso?

[DcifrThs]

19/10/1.52 opens EMP, 2 people cold call looser stats, 24/13/2 or so sb folds i call w/ 6h3h getting 7.5:1 and i probably own my side of the deck /images/graemlins/wink.gif

flop is lovely Jh6d4h i check planning to c'r the EMPer. he bets raise, reraise back to me for 3. i hate calling 3 cold so i cap. if called in more than 1 spot i plan on checking my draw.

folds to 3bettor who calls.

like, dislike? spewing?

-Barron

EDIT: board. pair+flushdraw.

[J_V]

Typo somewhere. I assume you have a pair+flushdraw but it reads like two pair.

[Brom]

I like the cap because 3 cold out of the blinds just screams draw to me. If you cap it, you can get them to slow down even if they improve, and they probably won't try anything tricky when a scare card comes off.

BTW you put the 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif in there twice, which one was real? If your hand was 63o then I'm not a fan of the preflop call.

OK I just read you corrections with the 4. I still advocate the same play.

[DpR]

Seems reasonable at first. But in the end I don't like it given the chance you are drawing almost dead. Getting only one caller obviously is nice, thus you are either drawing clean to your flush draw (minus redraws), or you are ahead of big hearts that have 13 outs.

If you get called in 2 places you may be in a world or hurt.

I'll give the play a c+

[Ray Zee]

does anyone ever consider folding in these spots.

[ggbman]

[ QUOTE ]
does anyone ever consider folding in these spots.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you do, then maybe i should. However, even if we're up against a set we're getting odds here, and i would say maybe 20-25% of the time we have some clean 2 pair/trips outs here. Yes?

[Senor Choppy]

[ QUOTE ]
does anyone ever consider folding in these spots.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do, but not in a hand like this. Too much money in the pot combined with not enough evidence that your flush outs aren't good.

[catlover]

Ray is referring to the danger that you are up against a bigger flush draw.

How often does this need to be the case to justify a fold here?

And how likely is it?

[MarkL444]

im a bit lost in this hand...probably over my head.

[ QUOTE ]
Ray is referring to the danger that you are up against a bigger flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

and/or a set. man you could be in a lot of trouble here.

doesnt your cap only fold people out who you would beat with your flush? i guess the pot is big and you want to knock ppl out...and want your two pair to be good enough if you make that, so getting HU would be nice. is that the logic?

[oreogod]

Wow. Dunno. A set would have a 10 out redraw if u hit the turn, it is also possible u could be up against a higher flush. Thats really the only two things I see u being up against here.

I might actually fold. I say this now, but in the middle of the hand I might be taking your line. As far as the cap, it would feel really awkward to just call three cold.

[mike l.]

seems great to me. in what way would it be nutso? just beware if the flush card falls and your lone opponent starts raising...

[mike l.]

"does anyone ever consider folding in these spots."

no. mason told me that one cant really play too tight before the flop in hold em, but if one plays too tight after the flop one will surely lose.

[Lawrence Ng]

[ QUOTE ]
does anyone ever consider folding in these spots.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ray, during my sophomore year as a tightey-tight-tight limit player I would make folds like these in multi-way action. While a certain small percentage of the time I was beat, drawing dead, the percentage of times of I wasn't I was getting excellent EV on my draws to make up for those times I was dead.

I think folding here is giving up too much equity based on the fact there is equally a good (as there would be bad) a chance the player is drawing live/dead. I see the glass half full now here instead of half empty so I push forth wish these hands.

Lawrence

[Net Warrior]

I agree. It sounds like hero is putting the 3 better on what? An overpair would have 3 bet pre-flop. A set or 2 pair are both better than hero's set or 2 pair outs. A flush draw is better than hero's flush draw. The only possibility I see is a flush draw with no pair that doesn't get there. That's a reverse implied odds situation, and that seems pretty thin for a coldcall cap. All this is true while you don't know yet that there would be 2 folds inbetween. Also, as already stated, a 3 better with 2 pair or a set has redraw outs against a flush if it gets there.

[Wally]

[ QUOTE ]
mason told me that one cant really play too tight before the flop in hold em, but if one plays too tight after the flop one will surely lose.

[/ QUOTE ]

If Mason told you to jump off a bridge, would you do it?

[OrangeHeat]

I think you put alot of money into a pot with 6h3h.

Preflop 7.5:1 sounds good, but how often are we seeing a flop that is going to make 6h3h attractive? There aren't many besides str8 and trips. Flush flop would be nice but then your vulnerable to almost any suited overcard.

Flop: Your pair is probably no good at this point, tripping up may fiil someone, you have a 6H flush draw which may or may not be good, and your only clean way out of this is with a running 5 and 7 as you may be splitting with a running 2 and 5 combo. So you put in 4 bets - I like better spots.

Even if you get 1 caller and bet the turn - you have built an enormous pot that you most likely cannot win without improving. Either opponent is going nowhere on Turn/River if they have a piece.

I am all for pushing small edges when they exist - however it seems lately people have tagged small edge as any kind of draw regardless of action. I am no math whiz - but I can't seem to find positive EV in this situation.

It would be nice to show it down though...

Orange

[ike]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
mason told me that one cant really play too tight before the flop in hold em, but if one plays too tight after the flop one will surely lose.

[/ QUOTE ]

If Mason told you to jump off a bridge, would you do it?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, but if an extensively published world famous authority on bridge jumping recommended it, I might take his opinion into consideration.

[DcifrThs]

im surprised that nobody has yet mentioned the possibility that not one single jack out there likes to call a cold cap. the 3 bettor can rarely have a flush draw but im ahead of that right now. he can also have hands like KJs or AJs or AJo (he does have above 20odd VPIP in a 100/200 game...mine is 17). further, people raise preflop raisers VERY light in this game. i would never be shocked if the flop raiser (who was the first to cold call before the flop) has a hand like 77/88 which i clearly want to fold.

the cap therefore can really only fold out better hands or hands that have outs to my currently meh hand.

any more thoughts?

-Barron

[ike]

Folding the flop seems pretty terrible to me and capping is better than calling. I don't consider preflop a decision, that call is automatic for me.

[DcifrThs]

results honestly dont matter a lick in this hand. flop decision is what i care most about.

Thoughts have been expressed.

-Barron

[chuddo]

when you say you clearly want 77/88 to fold when you cap and some J fold, is this because you expect your lone pair of 6's to be good a particular amount of time?

[etizzle]

this is fine. Getting 7.5 to 1 preflop you have to call, and on this flop even against this many people you have more than your share of equity the majority of the time.

The only time you are in trouble is when you get 3 way action against a J and a flushdraw. Most of the time you will clear out the field to the 3 bettor (or better yet the original raiser calls with just a J) and you will flip a coin for this huge pot that started very multiway.

[Sully]

[ QUOTE ]
when you say you clearly want 77/88 to fold when you cap and some J fold, is this because you expect your lone pair of 6's to be good a particular amount of time?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an extremely important fundamental to understand. If you decide to cap here, the reason is that you have decided to stay in the hand. If you are going to stay in the hand, you MUST maximize your chance to win the pot, which means capping to eliminate mediocre hands that may be ahead of you right now, such as 88 TT or JT, but unlikely to hang around in the face of such aggression.

For every hand that folds, you have purchased a percentage of pot equity, and that is worth a lot in a pot like this.

Having said that...right or wrong, I probably fold this hand on the flop.

[chuddo]

thankd podge, but im well aware of this fundamental of folding out mediocre hands that are best at the moment.

in this particular hand however i was curious just how much equity would be gained from folding out a hand such as 88.

if his 63 is definitely going to have to improve to either trips, twopair, or the flush to win, i did not know if the added equity % of another player putting in bets was greater than the equity gain in getting 77/88 to fold here.

[ike]

You gain alot more than I think you realize by folding 88. If it contains the 8h and you would end up HU with a set by capping then you save yourself from a 7 out redraw against your flush. If you would end up HU against a better flush draw by capping then you put yourself in a position where instead of you drawing to 5 outs you have your opponent drawing to around 13.

[chuddo]

gotcha. i glanced to quickly and didn't realize his cap managed to get it headsup.