Snowmen in July... [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

aK13

07-26-2005, 03:42 PM

PokerStars 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, MP2 raises, 4 folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, Hero 3-bets, MP2 calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (15.33 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds.

Turn: (8.66 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, MP2 calls.

River: (10.66 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, MP2 raises, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 13.66 BB

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PokerStars 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP2 raises, CO calls, 2 folds, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (8.33 SB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP2 checks, CO bets, Hero raises, UTG folds, MP2 folds, CO calls.

Turn: (6.16 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls.

River: (8.16 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls.

Final Pot: 10.16 BB

07-26-2005, 03:45 PM

In Hand #1: What's your logic for the re-raise preflop?

aK13

07-26-2005, 03:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
In Hand #1: What's your logic for the re-raise preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Set value.
2. Collect money from fishies when they try to get in cheaply with their K3 or whatever garbage.
3. Give me some leverage against the raiser (represent a stronger hand).

Piiop

07-26-2005, 03:49 PM

Hand 1 is....special. Preflop....ok. Flop good turn good, river bet bad.

Hand 2 is good except for the river bet.

mikeyvegas

07-26-2005, 03:53 PM

I'll start with hand one.

PF: WTF, limp reraise with 8's. i just don't get it. Why did you do it.
Flop: This ended up being not a terrible flop for you, go ahead and keep on betting.
Turn: good bet
River: What hand calls that you can beat, K high? 7's? Doesn't seem like a very good bet to me. I might check to get a busted flush draw to bluff.

Harv72b

07-26-2005, 03:55 PM

I assume the limp/reraise is just to build a pot for when you hit your set. The problem is that it roped you into leading the flop and turn UI (you were fortunate to fold 3 players for just 1 flop bet; most any hand should've called there).

The river in hand 1 seems like a pretty obvious check/call situation. You're hoping that villian is on unimproved overcards, in which case it's iffy if he calls a bet given the strength you've shown so far. He might take a stab at the pot with AK/AQ, though, figuring that you're holding a similar hand & will fold. There's also the possiblity that he slowplayed a flopped set (which it looks like based on the action; he'd planned to raise a non-club turn but backed off when it got HU) or is holding a PP like TT or even QQ, which he might just check through and save you a bet (assuming he'd call a river bet with either hand).

I don't like that K showing on the river in hand 2 one bit, but I don't see any choice but bet/fold there.

lil'

07-26-2005, 03:57 PM

Hand 1 - Your pre-flop limp re-raise is pointless. It inflates the pot, meaning that if you are ahead on the flop, you will fold nobody. You don't have enough people in to be raising to hit a set.

Bad river card. The bet is no good. What worse hand is calling you down here? A better hand isn't folding in a big low limit pot.

Hand 2 - I'm a big river value bettor, but I don't really think a worse hand will call you down here often enough. Is a lower pocket pair or ace high really calling this very often at all? His turn call worries me.

imported_leader

07-26-2005, 04:05 PM

Hand 1: I don't like the 3-bet PF. There are only 4 others in the pot and MP2 could easily cap you here. In addition, it bloats the pot making it extremely hard to protect 88 on a flop of all unders. I don't like the river either. What is he calling that you beat? K high, 77. I doubt it. It think it's between C/C and C/F. I'd call because of KQ, but if that J was a Q or K, I'd fold.

Edit: I forgot about the flush draw. You'd probably have to call even if the J was a Q or K.

Hand 2: I'd C/C the river because I don't think he has 77, 55, 33, 22 enough here to justify a bet/fold. In addition, C/C never gets you bluffed out of the pot.

baronzeus

07-26-2005, 04:29 PM

I was at the table when you played this hand 1, and I like every street except the river. As soon as you put that bet in, I wanted to say "TAKE IT BACK!" but you didnt. Oh well.

baronzeus

07-26-2005, 04:30 PM

I was also at the table for hand 2. You need to c/f that river UI, since he will have a Queen here 90% of the time.

mikeyvegas

07-26-2005, 04:34 PM

The more i think about it, the more i hate the limp reraise pf. If you going to the see the flop with more people maybe it could be justified, but at most you'll be 5 handed.

baronzeus

07-26-2005, 04:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The more i think about it, the more i hate the limp reraise pf. If you going to the see the flop with more people maybe it could be justified, but at most you'll be 5 handed.

[/ QUOTE ]

The fact that you don't want to 3bet when you have more than 20% equity is worrisome. Keep in mind that players generally limp in with garbage.

jedi

07-26-2005, 04:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]

The river in hand 1 seems like a pretty obvious check/call situation. You're hoping that villian is on unimproved overcards, in which case it's iffy if he calls a bet given the strength you've shown so far. He might take a stab at the pot with AK/AQ, though, figuring that you're holding a similar hand & will fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would AK or AQ fold here? Seems like the perfect river card for A-big. I don't like the limp re-raise pre-flop. Seemed like chip spewing all the way down, but I could certainly be wrong.

The only thing I'd do on the river is check to MAYBE induce a bluff from a hand like KQ, but I don't see ANY hands that you beat here that's been calling all the way.

mikeyvegas

07-26-2005, 04:41 PM

I haven't posted in a while so please be patient with me. If i have 22 in the BB and there are 4 limpers and the sb completes, should i be raising?

baronzeus

07-26-2005, 04:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't posted in a while so please be patient with me. If i have 22 in the BB and there are 4 limpers and the sb completes, should i be raising?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry I don't mean to be pushy or anything I'm trying to be genuine. Yes, I raise in that situation, but it's closer, since your position sucks, and because as you can see 88 can win UI, while 22 can't generally.

This does two things. 1) It builds a big pot. People will call you with really marginal draws (like just 2 overs) when you hit your set, when they wouldn't if the pot were only 5SB. Also, bad players will chase backdoor flush and straight draws and in general pay you off a lot more. A secondary reason for raising said hands on the button with lots of loose limpers is 1) for value/equity and 2) if you miss the flop, you no longer have 20% equity, so calling a bet is bad. However, often times when the raiser is on the button it's checked to the PFR, either for a c/r or because people are afraid to bet into the PFR. This allows you to check behind and hopefully catch on the turn, or c/f UI.

Putting in one extra bet preflop to save one bet postflop seems pointless but you're getting your bet in when you have the most value, which is good poker. And, if you check behind on the flop and see your set on the turn, someone is likely to bet the turn, hopefully from EP, and you can now raise him/her or wait and raise him/her on the river.

This is really convoluted and may only be marginally +EV but I like doing this.

mikeyvegas

07-26-2005, 04:59 PM

That's cool man. I was just always under the impression that the value of mid to smallish pairs was the set value, and mostly the implied value they have. I just thought that seeing a flop as cheap as possible was best.

As for raising on the button with pp with lots of limpers, I've doing that for sometime. It's nice giving yourself the flop and turn to make a set.

baronzeus

07-26-2005, 05:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
That's cool man. I was just always under the impression that the value of mid to smallish pairs was the set value, and mostly the implied value they have. I just thought that seeing a flop as cheap as possible was best.

As for raising on the button with pp with lots of limpers, I've doing that for sometime. It's nice giving yourself the flop and turn to make a set.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not actually 20% (4:1) to make a set by the turn, you're about 15.5% (close to 5:1). But you still only need to make up 1 extra BB postflop to make it worth it when you hit, which is really not a big issue IMO.

callmedonnie

07-26-2005, 05:20 PM

I don't like the raise preflop at all in the rirst hand. There are so many callers already in. If you acted behind MP2 you could do this and make it two bets to everyone, but here you have to wait until they each put in one bet. So you're just building this pot, which isn't great with this hand, which is quite vulnerable preflop versus this field.

That said, I'd don't think you played it terribly postflop.

The second hand looks okay, except the river looks like a spot where you are only called when beat. I'm not sure if I love the flop c/r. On a rainbow board w/ most trips wait for turn to make that play.