What to do with a weak suited ace facing a loose limper short-handed

[TiltsMcFabulous]

CO is very loose, generally passive, though with some tricky tendencies. I have been a solid winner against him, showing down quality holdings.

Party 5-10 short, 6 players, Hero is on button

Preflop: Hero is Button with A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
2 folds, CO calls, Hero ... ?

[ElSapo]

[ QUOTE ]
CO is very loose, generally passive, though with some tricky tendencies. I have been a solid winner against him, showing down quality holdings.

Party 5-10 short, 6 players, Hero is on button

Preflop: Hero is Button with A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
2 folds, CO calls, Hero ... ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Raises.

Post these in the HUSH forum.

[TiltsMcFabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
CO is very loose, generally passive, though with some tricky tendencies. I have been a solid winner against him, showing down quality holdings.

Party 5-10 short, 6 players, Hero is on button

Preflop: Hero is Button with A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
2 folds, CO calls, Hero ... ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Raises.

Post these in the HUSH forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

I want advice from here. Other people post SH hands all the time, and they don't get grief for it.

~ Tilts

[ElSapo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
CO is very loose, generally passive, though with some tricky tendencies. I have been a solid winner against him, showing down quality holdings.

Party 5-10 short, 6 players, Hero is on button

Preflop: Hero is Button with A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
2 folds, CO calls, Hero ... ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Raises.

Post these in the HUSH forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

I want advice from here. Other people post SH hands all the time, and they don't get grief for it.

~ Tilts

[/ QUOTE ]

The point is that you'll get better advice posting in the HUSH forum. But post where you want, it doesn't bother me.

[Brunger]

Raise you likely have the best hand you gain momentum you may fold the blinds and you have control over the oppenent.

[meep_42]

Any read on the blinds?

-d

[brettbrettr]

I almost always raise in this spot.

[TiltsMcFabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
Any read on the blinds?

-d

[/ QUOTE ]

Both seem typical SH players. Slightly loose, a little laggy, but neither is nuts or a super tag.

~ Tilts

[SippinSoma]

Raising A2s in this spot and not Q8s is horrible. Plug the numbers into PokerStove and let the math do the talking.

[brettbrettr]

Thought this was locked?

[baronzeus]

This is a marginal raise, and I suggest folding unless you play very well postflop. Hands like QTo and KTo are much easier raises than A2s.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
Thought this was locked?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you spent more time in #sstakes, you'd understand.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Thought this was locked?

[/ QUOTE ]

Scrub convinced me that this thread has a lot of viable questions for people regarding isolating unknown limpers, pot size vs. rake ramifications, etc., in an IRC chat, and that I was probably locking it more due to fear of what flamefest might ensue than due to the fact that the post was off-topic.

While I still do think it is more suited for HUSH than here, I think there are people who would get a lot out of the post here, so I'm going to leave it unlocked unless it degenerates into a flamefest. This is not encouragement to try to derail the thread to get it locked, FWIW.

To answer the OP's question, I limp here in most situations, as a raise will generally still result in a 3-way pot. The only times I'm raising are when I have reads that the SB and BB are tight but good players and when the limper gives up more easily when faced with a raise than he does otherwise. I don't mind keeping the pot size small here.

Rob

[ArturiusX]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a marginal raise, and I suggest folding unless you play very well postflop. Hands like QTo and KTo are much easier raises than A2s.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't see a fold here.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is a marginal raise, and I suggest folding unless you play very well postflop. Hands like QTo and KTo are much easier raises than A2s.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't see a fold here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think calling is worse than folding.

[Entity]

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This is a marginal raise, and I suggest folding unless you play very well postflop. Hands like QTo and KTo are much easier raises than A2s.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't see a fold here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think calling is worse than folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think calling and raising are close, and depend on the blinds and their play postflop. I think folding is a very distant third.

I hate to do this, but I'm pasting from an earlier AIM conversation.

[ QUOTE ]
[16:17] me: that A2s hand
[16:17] me: I limp
[16:17] scrub: I'm pretty sure that I raise
[16:17] me: unless I have reads on blinds that encourage a raise
[16:17] scrub: I mean, I can see limping
[16:17] scrub: but against defaults
[16:17] scrub: raising kicks ass there
[16:17] me: 5/10 6max default reads = loose blinds
[16:17] scrub: yeah
[16:17] scrub: but also "fold the flop"
[16:17] me: not the 5/10 I play
[16:18] scrub: or "everyone folds the turn a decent %"
[16:18] scrub: and also "don't play well post flop"
[16:18] me: I've had a lot more luck recently limping behind with ok but not great hands
[16:18] me: after one limper and with loose blinds
[16:18] scrub: yeah, I think overlimping is good with a lot of hands
[16:18] scrub: but I think a hand as good as AXs
[16:18] me: I get a surprising amount of chances to steal that work well when I'm checked to
[16:18] scrub: yeah
[16:18] scrub: that is true
[16:18] me: I raise A5s+
[16:18] me: so I don't think raising is necessarily bad
[16:18] scrub: but I /images/graemlins/heart.gif having everyone fold in the bigger pot
[16:19] me: yeah it just doesn't seem to happen often, could be selective memory though
[16:20] scrub: yeah
[16:20] scrub: a hand with showdown value
[16:20] scrub: against people who are going to let me abuse them
[16:20] scrub: and take showdowns when I feel like it
[16:20] scrub: and who are going to call with bizzare [censored] preflop and then make bad folds after putting money in against my A2s
[16:22] me: once again, we stress the important of playing with reads
[16:22] me: since I *usually* am sitting with tight but decent players to my left
[16:22] me: I usually raise


[/ QUOTE ]

So yeah. If I know the blinds are decent and not particularly loose, I think it's a raise. But saying that calling is way worse than folding is just dumb, IMO.

Rob

[baronzeus]

I never said it was "way" worse than folding, I just think it is worse.

There are two main ways you will win here.

1) Top pair. This isn't good every time but it's good most in SH games, but you can only win if you hit an A this way.
2) Fold equity. You bet and everyone folds. This is the most common way to win without a showdown.
3) 5% of the time: You hit your flush.


I think you need to raise to reserve some of that fold equity. If you don't raise, you'll generally only win when you flop an ace, because if someone else bets, you have t ofold, unless you have a decent draw. 1 overcard in a non-raised pot is never a good draw

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I never said it was "way" worse than folding, I just think it is worse.

There are two main ways you will win here.

1) Top pair. This isn't good every time but it's good most in SH games, but you can only win if you hit an A this way.
2) Fold equity. You bet and everyone folds. This is the most common way to win without a showdown.
3) 5% of the time: You hit your flush.


I think you need to raise to reserve some of that fold equity. If you don't raise, you'll generally only win when you flop an ace, because if someone else bets, you have t ofold, unless you have a decent draw. 1 overcard in a non-raised pot is never a good draw

[/ QUOTE ]

Playing the 5/10 6max, I still get bet into quite often on the flop as the PFR. I think that raising preflop adds roughly 0% to my FE against standard opponents, because everyone is used to everyone else raising all the damned time.

If we had reads raising to increase FE can certainly be worthwhile, but often you're better keeping the pot size smaller, under-representing your hand, and allowing yourself for an easier time taking the pot down postflop as most players tend to peel less with random cards when you have a smaller pot. Just MHO from playing the 5/10 game.

Rob

[Neal_Schon]

[ QUOTE ]
2) Fold equity. You bet and everyone folds. This is the most common way to win without a showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dont. Stop. A-rockin.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
Playing the 5/10 6max, I still get bet into quite often on the flop as the PFR. I think that raising preflop adds roughly 0% to my FE against standard opponents, because everyone is used to everyone else raising all the damned time.

[/ QUOTE ]
I played a ton of hands at 5/10 6m as well, and this statement is not true IMO. I was raising a lot preflop and getting the field to fold even when I missed.

I do agree that keeping the pot small is good. But lets say you limp on the button with A2s. It's checked to you on a semi-raggy board and you bet. You get 1 caller, in the CO, both blinds fold. What is your turn move when it's checked to you?

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
2) Fold equity. You bet and everyone folds. This is the most common way to win without a showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dont. Stop. A-rockin.

[/ QUOTE ]

Go play neverwin or something. I honestly think FE is a big way to win in SH games.

[brettbrettr]

Maybe you're tighter than Rob.

Depends on the player.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Playing the 5/10 6max, I still get bet into quite often on the flop as the PFR. I think that raising preflop adds roughly 0% to my FE against standard opponents, because everyone is used to everyone else raising all the damned time.

[/ QUOTE ]
I played a ton of hands at 5/10 6m as well, and this statement is not true IMO. I was raising a lot preflop and getting the field to fold even when I missed.

I do agree that keeping the pot small is good. But lets say you limp on the button with A2s. It's checked to you on a semi-raggy board and you bet. You get 1 caller, in the CO, both blinds fold. What is your turn move when it's checked to you?

[/ QUOTE ]

It really depends on the flop.

Basically, here's what I'm saying. I don't think you're going to ever fold a better hand by raising preflop and betting the flop and betting the turn. Your FE only goes up when your opponent misses.

I don't mind raising when you know you've got tight blinds. But when you've got someone who will defend with, say, the top 40% of his hands, and you've got this dude limping in front of you, all you really have working for you is position and momentum, and neither of those are a particularly big deal to me.

I'm not saying that people will call more when they don't hit the flop if you raise; I'm just saying that people don't fold more because you raised preflop in this game, on the average.

Rob

[Neal_Schon]

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Go play neverwin or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im still underrolled /images/graemlins/mad.gif /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[ QUOTE ]
I honestly think FE is a big way to win in SH games.

[/ QUOTE ]



Nah.. I was just saying:

"You bet and everyone folds. This is the most common way to win without a showdown."

I was just pointing out (in good fun) that betting and having everyone fold seems to be about the ONLY way to win without a showdown.

Barring like an earthquake or something.

What would you do if blinds were LOOSE too?

[baronzeus]

The more I read it, the more I like it...

I still think you add some FE, but probably not much in general. And you bet, of course, if it's checked to you.

[TiltsMcFabulous]

K, what if you held 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif?

Does that change things? Or still a probable raise with a call second, and folding a distant third in the balloting?

~ Tilts