Isolating a TAG

[crunchy1]

UTG+1 was a TAG. I've been finding success in isolating TAG-type players who limp in EP. Given the type of player they are and the range of hands that this type of player will limp in EP - I find it easy to steal a lot of pots on the flop/turn when my isolation is successful.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (7.25 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.25 BB

I was almost positive that I was ahead with top pair on the flop. The turn stop'n'go was confusing to say the least. I feel sick reviewing this hand and looking at my call down. Comment/Discuss/Berate. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
Given the type of player they are and the range of hands that this type of player will limp in EP

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think that given this the river is a fold?

[SeaEagle]

Isn't the idea of isolating the tag to take away the small pot when he misses the flop? I find that when I get played back at, especially in only a semi-aggressive fashion, that the tag actually has a hand. I think I'd have folded the turn here and looked for a better place.

Incidentally, if you've been isolating him enough that it's bugging him, then the donkbet probably shows more strength than a flop 3-bet or a turn c/r.

[DemonDeac]

based on their PT stats, for the blinds fold enough for this to be a succesfful isolation move most of the time??

[crunchy1]

SeaEagle - This is the first time I had the opportunity to isolate him like this.

Deac - I felt certain enough that the blinds would fold out here.

[Padawan Learner]

Crunchy:

[ QUOTE ]
I've been finding success in isolating TAG-type players who limp in EP. Given the type of player they are and the range of hands that this type of player will limp in EP - I find it easy to steal a lot of pots on the flop/turn when my isolation is successful.


[/ QUOTE ]

I like it. But to do it with A2o OTB, I would like to know that the blinds are very likely to stay out of my way. If they are loose, I would pass.

Anyone like a turn raise for a free showdown? I think I do...especially if you plan on going call, call.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Given the type of player they are and the range of hands that this type of player will limp in EP

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you think that given this the river is a fold?

[/ QUOTE ]
That's a good question. My range for Villian here was something along the lines of Axs, Kxs, 22-88, possibly suited connectors/one-gaps.

Put yourself in Villian's shoes. What range are you putting me on when I raise PF and raise the flop.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
to do it with A2o OTB, I would like to know that the blinds are very likely to stay out of my way. If they are loose, I would pass.

[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed - as I said previously (probably while you were composing this post) I had no quams about folding out the blinds.

Incidentally, I think folding out hands can be marginally more successful when the player you're isolating is a decent player. There aren't many players that are aware but, the decent, better ones (which are the most likely to be paying attention) will generally notice that you're isolating another good player and will probably fold some higher quality hands than normal - giving you credit for a premuim holding that you can raise another good player with.

[Jake (The Snake)]

Well you are defenetely behind a Tag's EP limp range preflop... the problem then becomes whether or not raising and stealing flops against small pocket pairs will occur often enough to make up the difference.

You also have to consider the blinds since they will wake up with hands sometimes. If the blinds are tight they are likely only playing back with hands that have you in big trouble. I don't know if the preflop play is +EV or not, but I'd probably wait for something a bit better than A2o.

Postflop, if I was going to fold anywhere it would be the turn. Either he is trying to donk/3-bet you or is afraid of giving a free card. Even if the latter is true he will sometimes be ahead of you.

Once you get to the river you have to call.

[Entity]

I'd fold preflop, call the flop, raise the turn, and check the river most likely.

[crunchy1]

What is the weakest hand that you'd make this iso-raise with?

[SeaEagle]

[ QUOTE ]
My range for Villian here was something along the lines of Axs, Kxs, 22-88, possibly suited connectors/one-gaps.

Put yourself in Villian's shoes. What range are you putting me on when I raise PF and raise the flop.


[/ QUOTE ]
So assuming you have a tight image, he's going to put you on a premium hand. And when an AKx flops and you raise him he's going to assume he's in some trouble, since he's not going to have you on a flush draw because you're not raising PF from EP w/ KQs or lower. Agreed?

So based on the range you have him on and the range he presumably has you on, what do you think he's donk betting the turn with?

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
What is the weakest hand that you'd make this iso-raise with?

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends on his postflop play and the blind's tightness/looseness. I'm apt to raise with my standard hands in this situation, though. KTs+, ATo+, A9s+, 77+ type of stuff. Depends on what I think of his game postflop.

Isolating TAGs is something that should only be done when the TAG isn't really a TAG, but more of a tight, selective preflop player who sucks and likes to give up postflop.

Rob

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
Isolating TAGs is something that should only be done when the TAG isn't really a TAG, but more of a tight, selective preflop player who sucks and likes to give up postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
I operate under the general assumption that a 2/4 TAG - at least statistically and until proven otherwise - generally fits this category. It's not neccessarily that they suck - but more so that they're very predictable. Which leads to this post given that I felt his turn stop'n'go was not something I felt was predictable.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Isolating TAGs is something that should only be done when the TAG isn't really a TAG, but more of a tight, selective preflop player who sucks and likes to give up postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
I operate under the general assumption that a 2/4 TAG - at least statistically and until proven otherwise - generally fits this category. It's not neccessarily that they suck - but more so that they're very predictable. Which leads to this post given that I felt his turn stop'n'go was not something I felt was predictable.

[/ QUOTE ]

His turn stop and go generally means that he thinks you're on a flush draw because he sucks at reading hands, or that he just hit 2pr with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif8/images/graemlins/spade.gif and is hoping to bet-3bet your ass.

I honestly think you're behind here no the turn often enough to fold against the sort of player you're assuming you're up against.

Rob

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
So based on the range you have him on and the range he presumably has you on, what do you think he's donk betting the turn with?

[/ QUOTE ]
My turn range for him (in order of likeliehood, IMO): A9s-A2s, K9, K8, 98, 88, 99, JTs, 67s, Kxs. I probably missed a couple but that's close.

I thought I had a a reasonable chance at holding the best hand. And a decent chance to improve if I didn't (including hidden outs to a chop or take the lead). I had position so I was guaranteed to see showdown for 2BBs at the most.

Someone had suggested the idea of raising the turn for a free showdown. I don't think that would be correct here because I want to see a showdown and raising the turn would force me into folding to a 3-bet. I'm not defending my call-call line because I'm not sure that's right either - but, I'm pretty confident that spewing extra chips when you're in a state of confusion isn't a very good idea.

[MaxPower]

I think you are taking this isolation thing too far.

[lil']

[ QUOTE ]
I was almost positive that I was ahead with top pair on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]
Just curious why you felt this. Was there some history between you both?

There's no need to call this down after he bets the turn. You've shown plenty of strength and he keeps betting. The least he could have on the turn is K-X /images/graemlins/club.gif, but that's not likely. He may be betting with the intention of 3 betting you when you raise with 9-9, or he is testing the waters with two pair or some suited ace that is better than yours.

If I were in your shoes I would have called down from the flop on with no raises at all. Betting a draw into a board like that doesn't make sense with a tight player, and if you are ahead, you don't want to scare him off anything else.

edit - I like the idea of isolating the weak tighties, but you might want a little more hand than this in case one of the blinds has something.

[ElSapo]

[ QUOTE ]
UTG+1 was a TAG.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
My turn range for him (in order of likeliehood, IMO): A9s-A2s, K9, K8, 98, 88, 99, JTs, 67s, Kxs. I probably missed a couple but that's close.

[/ QUOTE ]

None of this makes sense to me, and I think your isolation move is a bad one. TAG's don't limp first in with crap, and a big chunk of those hands are crap -- especially the way your table seems to play, with a whole bunch of folding and no limping. In fact, the only limper here is the supposed TAG.

If a TAG limps up front, it's usually a small to mid-pocket pair, or a low-suited ace. You're behind all of those. And that's -if- he limps, which, if he's a TAG, he probably wont.

Some will limp with KQs and KJs, but most TAGs are raising the KQ and dumping the KJs depending on the game.

Nothing about your plan makes sense to me. You isolated a good player with a bad hand and then take an approach designed to pay him off.

ElSapo

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So based on the range you have him on and the range he presumably has you on, what do you think he's donk betting the turn with?

[/ QUOTE ]
My turn range for him (in order of likeliehood, IMO): A9s-A2s, K9, K8, 98, 88, 99, JTs, 67s, Kxs. I probably missed a couple but that's close.

I thought I had a a reasonable chance at holding the best hand. And a decent chance to improve if I didn't (including hidden outs to a chop or take the lead). I had position so I was guaranteed to see showdown for 2BBs at the most.

Someone had suggested the idea of raising the turn for a free showdown. I don't think that would be correct here because I want to see a showdown and raising the turn would force me into folding to a 3-bet. I'm not defending my call-call line because I'm not sure that's right either - but, I'm pretty confident that spewing extra chips when you're in a state of confusion isn't a very good idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

I suggested the idea of raising the turn, but only after you call the flop (and again, this is dependent on whether or not you think TAG is aggressive enough to bet a draw).

After you raise the flop, your turn range is WAY too wide for him. He's got you beat pretty often and while calling down is better than raising (after your flop play), folding is probably better than calling.

This is why I fold A2o after a TAG limps.

Rob

If you are going to isolate the TAG with the specific intention of making him fold, aim to do it with your worst hands, like 32o.

[ElSapo]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are going to isolate the TAG with the specific intention of making him fold, aim to do it with your worst hands, like 32o.

[/ QUOTE ]

Serious question - Is this a joke?

[peterchi]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you are taking this isolation thing too far.

[/ QUOTE ]

thank you. i thought i was taking crazy pills.

and since i'm new here, i didn't have the balls to say anything.

[thejameser]

A2o, huh? like any other commonly-used term, TAG is used so often by players of various levels of experience that your definition of a "TAG" might be relatively different than that of another player with either more or less understanding of the game. if you have had success isolating "TAG"-type players in the past i would reexamine those hands and compare the probable factors that led to the success. regardless, it sounds like you are essentially trying to steal the pot. the key to this being a profitable play(if it is at all, but that goes back to the subjectivity of your use of the word TAG)is to know when you are beat and release the hand(i.e. the turn). spiking that A was probably one of the worst cards for you as it gave you a reason to hang on. also, have you been doing this often enough that the alleged TAG might have been observant enough to notice? maybe he just thought, "hey i'm in this hand with this calling station that does some occasional stealing, i can value bet until the cows come home." /images/graemlins/wink.gif seriously though, he is not worried about AK which is a reasonable holding for a PFR so either he thinks you are full of sh*t(because you have been over-using the play?) or he has two pair beat(his turn bet seems to be hoping for a raise IMO). either way you seem to be in a less than profitable situation.

[Bodhi]

[ QUOTE ]
Given the type of player they are and the range of hands that this type of player will limp in EP - I find it easy to steal a lot of pots on the flop/turn when my isolation is successful.

[/ QUOTE ]

Woah, talk about reverse tilt. Fold preflop.

[Erik W]

I'd put him on ATs or AJo in this situation and that action
after betting out turn.

If he is a 6% raiser those are probable hands.
If he is 8%+ then he'll raise'em preflop.

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
I was almost positive that I was ahead with top pair on the flop. The turn stop'n'go was confusing to say the least. I feel sick reviewing this hand and looking at my call down. Comment/Discuss/Berate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me guess. UTG+1 had ATo or AJo. I don't like this isolation raise as his limping hands from EP may well dominate your Ace-rag offsuit hand. I would just fold pre-flop.

[J. Sawyer]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been finding success in isolating TAG-type players who limp in EP.

[/ QUOTE ]

w/ A2o... no, stop

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you are going to isolate the TAG with the specific intention of making her fold, aim to do it with your worst hands, like 32o.

[/ QUOTE ]

Serious question - Is this a joke?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey sorry I didn't get to finish the post when I started it. Yes I am being serious. Not saying that making your opponent fold is often a correct strategy, but if it is your goal to do this, doing it with 32o gives you the best chance to make him fold. For one, it gives the best opporunity for scare cards to come up that will cause the tight player to fold. It is also extremely unlikely that you will hit a hand that you may think is good (like top pair, no kicker), or one that actually is good but you have to fold because of pressure. Overall, the only way for you to win here is by bluffing, so you are wasting the least value from any mediocre hand. This isn't a play I would make or recommend making, but if your outset from the start is to get her to fold, then your worst hands are the best for this, because you are sacrificing the least. More comments expected and welcome.

[SeaEagle]

[ QUOTE ]
Nothing about your plan makes sense to me. You isolated a good player with a bad hand and then take an approach designed to pay him off.


[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure people are giving crunchy enough credit for recognizing a good situation. If a predictable tag limps, he's not going to have a power hand and he's not going to chase it too hard after the flop. If you can successfully isolate this tag, it's probably a profitable situation regardless of the cards you hold. I don't think this play is very advisable at Party 2/4 because someone is pretty much always going to call your raise and rain on your parade. However, the only information I have is that Crunchy iso-raised and it worked. So I have to assume he correctly assessed the various factors and picked one of the rare situations where he could get away with it.

I think his play after the flop could be improved. But I'll take heads up, in position, with the lead, and against a tag who doesn't really like his hand all day long - with pretty much any 2 cards.

[peterchi]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd put him on ATs or AJo in this situation and that action
after betting out turn.

If he is a 6% raiser those are probable hands.
If he is 8%+ then he'll raise'em preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, i am an 11% PFR and i rarely raise AJo UTG pre-flop .

[lil']

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure people are giving crunchy enough credit for recognizing a good situation

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, people are making too much of it. We don't know what kind of TAG this player is, but isolating a TAG limper with an ace who will fold if he misses the flop is not that bad of a play. There are a lot of conditions to be met, though. He must be willing to fold, you must have a solid image (that is important, as a loose image will encourage a calldown), and the blinds must clear out of the way. Even if you are dominated, you may win the pot anyway if you both miss.

The post flop calldown after the turn bet is worse than the preflop raise. People should focus more on that.

[Hamlet]

Given your description, when the TAG bets out on the turn, he has at least an Ace. Fold the turn.

If you're going to try and make plays like this, you need to be able to get away from your trash when the TAG shows some strength. He's starting with a better hand than you, and you're counting on being able to fold out some hands that beat you because he missed the flop. If he's not folding, calling him down is just paying off a better Ace (or two-pair, or a set)

[peterchi]

[ QUOTE ]

The post flop calldown after the turn bet is worse than the preflop raise. People should focus more on that.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think people are concerned about the pre-flop raise here BECAUSE of the postflop calldown.

my feeling is (and again i'm relatively new here so excuse me if i sound too bold), if you're gonna isolate pre-flop with trash, then you better be damn sure of your ability to play better than him postflop.

now i've seen other posts from crunchy and i know he's a solid player, and in fact he's sure helped me out before. that's why this one confused me a ton.

whether you hit an ace or not doesn't really matter. the goal is to take it down on the flop or turn. if you can't do that, then you gotta let it go. if you can't let it go, then you probably shouldn't isolate with A2o.

villain likes his hand -- most people don't stop-and-go with hands they don't like. and since he did this, that completely takes away your ability to take it down, unless you think he'll fold to a turn raise. and i'd bet that he won't.

hero's hand has very little showdown value at this point. the comment about hidden outs to a chop kind of concerns me too. you shouldn't be isolating if it puts you in the situation of hoping to draw out to a chop.

[lil']

[ QUOTE ]
my feeling is (and again i'm relatively new here so excuse me if i sound too bold), if you're gonna isolate pre-flop with trash, then you better be damn sure of your ability to play better than him postflop.


[/ QUOTE ]

No, that is 100% correct. The preflop raise in and of itself is not so bad, but hero ignored the information he received along the way telling him top pair no kicker is no good. It appears he was outplayed.

I was more responding to the people who had nothing more to offer than "Pre-flop bad - ugh."

[ElSapo]

[ QUOTE ]
He must be willing to fold, you must have a solid image (that is important, as a loose image will encourage a calldown), and the blinds must clear out of the way.

[/ QUOTE ]

It looks to me like none of these conditions were satisfied. The BB called, his opponent didn't fold and while there's no talk of image that I recall, the first two don't support a great image.



[ QUOTE ]
I was more responding to the people who had nothing more to offer than "Pre-flop bad - ugh."

[/ QUOTE ]

We may just disagree here. And we may be talking about different kinds of TAGs, I guess. But it looks like we've isolated a tight, aggro player with a hand that is almost certainly behind -- the entire idea being that if he misses, we'll win. Except, we're not going to know if and when he misses.

There's some risk he limped with a better ace - ATs, AJ, etc. I raise those, but whatever, these are potential limping hands. There's also a risk he limped with a middle to small pocket pair, 22-99 or something, assuming he'd raise TT and up.

Personally, I don't see a TAG limping with 76s or KTs in a game that just folded to the CO.

So, if he's got a middle-to-decent ace or a middle pocket pair, I just don't see this being a good play. Worst case scenario - you both make top pair. Which is pretty close to what happened here, it looks like.

Or the flop is rags, and you can't move him off his little pair because he (correctly) puts you on over(s).

Now, that assumes a lot about our TAG. If you can put him on a broader range of hands for limping first in, maybe the isolation is good. The problem is, given the player and the game conditions that apparently exist, something doesn't fit. Maybe he just isn't a TAG.

But whatever, we've managed to isolate (almost, the BB came along) our opponent, and now we make the best and worst possible hand. Even going call-call-call is to some degree admitting defeat. "I isolated you, but we can't play."

It just seems to me like too many conditions have to be met - he has to have the right kind of hand, we need the right kind of flop, and we need to get him to roll over.

And we're gonna do this playing one card.

So no, I don't like it. Personally, I like it when people isolate me with crap. It's true, I do fold some hands. I probably fold some winners. But I also take down some big pots, and I see those players consistently losing.

I'm not saying hero is a losing player, for the record -- I'm just saying I'm not isolating a TAG with A2. As someone said, if the idea is to make him fold then what does it matter which cards you hold? And I think raising with 23o is a bad idea also.

The difference between isolating with A2o and 22 is huge, but I figure everyone sees that. With 22, if you know he's a TAG and he knows your a TAG, it's entirely possible, likely and occurs frequently that you get called to the river and paid off by AK/AQ. Happens all the time. But if it gets to the river and you haven't improved your A2, you're not winning the pot except in rare missed-draw scenarios.

ElSapo

[lil']

[ QUOTE ]
And we may be talking about different kinds of TAGs, I guess.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably. In the orignal post, he was giving off the impression he could easily push this guy off of a hand. This guy donkbet twice, so he's no pushover. Also, the isolation play didn't work. So hero misread the opponent and the table.

But, again, the bigger mistake is wasting all those big bets postflop when it looks like you are behind. I know you agree with that. I can forgive the 1BB spent preflop if you have a read you are going with and it turns out to be wrong. I can't forgive pissing away 2BBs on the turn and river, though.

I agree the preflop raise is stretching the isolation play. I said in my first post that he should probably wait for a better hand and that he'll dislike it when the BB calls. The postflop play is what really cost him here, though.

[SeaEagle]

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I like it when people isolate me with crap. It's true, I do fold some hands. I probably fold some winners. But I also take down some big pots, and I see those players consistently losing.


[/ QUOTE ]
I would guess I isolate with crap at least twice a night. I also raise UTG with weak hands (97s) on occasion. And I steal the blinds with total crap all the time. And, overall, I make a profit with these plays. But I almost never lose a big pot with these hands.

The problem with this hand wasn't preflop, it was chasing when his opponent didn't miss the flop. Once Crunchy got it 3-handed, he's probably a 2-1 favorite to win the hand. Unfortunately, this wasn't that time. If he posts this and the flop (or turn) action goes "Villian checks, Hero bets, [BB folds], Villian folds", everybody goes "Nice read. Well played".

[ElSapo]

[ QUOTE ]
But, again, the bigger mistake is wasting all those big bets postflop when it looks like you are behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, but I'd probably play this call-call-call post-flop. I'm there, I put myself there, and I'm not folding. This might be an error, but how big of one I'm not sure.

Give that he raised the flop, I think you can dump the turn, especially given that he's supposedly a TAG.

So had I played the hand, I'd have lost either...

0 BB, b/c I fold PF
3 BB, b/c I call down from the flop on
1.5 BB b/c I raised the flop and folded to the turn bet

Oddly, I think 3 or 0 is the right answer. But I do understand what you mean post-flop.

And why are we raising the flop? To get the BB out? He's either ahead or drawing thin. If he check-raises the flop, we can fold. If he calls the flop, we can probably forget it on the turn.

ElSapo

[TheHip41]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you are going to isolate the TAG with the specific intention of making her fold, aim to do it with your worst hands, like 32o.

[/ QUOTE ]

Serious question - Is this a joke?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey sorry I didn't get to finish the post when I started it. Yes I am being serious. Not saying that making your opponent fold is often a correct strategy, but if it is your goal to do this, doing it with 32o gives you the best chance to make him fold. For one, it gives the best opporunity for scare cards to come up that will cause the tight player to fold. It is also extremely unlikely that you will hit a hand that you may think is good (like top pair, no kicker), or one that actually is good but you have to fold because of pressure. Overall, the only way for you to win here is by bluffing, so you are wasting the least value from any mediocre hand. This isn't a play I would make or recommend making, but if your outset from the start is to get her to fold, then your worst hands are the best for this, because you are sacrificing the least. More comments expected and welcome.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oooooooor, you just just fold your trash preflop. Why get involved with good players with trash hands? I don't get it.

[ElSapo]

[ QUOTE ]
I would guess I isolate with crap at least twice a night.

[/ QUOTE ]

I isolate all the time, but not players who I believe have a better hand than I do.

[ QUOTE ]
I also raise UTG with weak hands (97s) on occasion.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a whole other thing alltogether, and one I don't really want to get into. Generally, I don't think it's worth it. If there's that good of a chance you can take the blinds from there, do it; if it's for advertisement value, I don't anyone's watching. Whatever makes you happy.

[ QUOTE ]
And I steal the blinds with total crap all the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why it's stealing and not raising with the best hand.

[ QUOTE ]
And, overall, I make a profit with these plays. But I almost never lose a big pot with these hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then you're a much better player than the people I play against, but I suspect the same holds true for a lot of posters on 2+2.

I'm not sure why people seem to get defensive sometimes -- whether you disagree or agree, the idea that isolating a tight and aggressive player with A2o is a bad idea seems easy to understand. You're free to disagree, and I have no doubt you turn a profit. Most people who post here are better players than I am; I've spent the last three years establishing that fact.

ElSapo

[sfer]

UTG+1's stats?

[PokerBob]

why would you do this with a hand that is either behind or way behind the TAG's?

[thejameser]

[ QUOTE ]
UTG+1's stats?

[/ QUOTE ]
362 VIEWS/41 REPLIES FINALLY SOMEONE ASKS(sorry for yelling).

[ElSapo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
UTG+1's stats?

[/ QUOTE ]
362 VIEWS/41 REPLIES FINALLY SOMEONE ASKS(sorry for yelling).

[/ QUOTE ]

This actually made me laugh, when Sfer asked. I honestly don't care what his stats are, and I think the recent stat-obsession is silly (though maybe necessary when you 56-table). However, knowing something about the opponent's post-flop agrression levels is probably a good idea.

Assuming, that is, I know what a 2AF level means; which I don't.

[thejameser]

i am actually just curious what OP's view of TAG stats may be. it would not necessarily change what i think about the hand.

[hellite]

Im of the opinion that attempting to isolate a "TAG" with a crap hand is a terrible play. Sure, if a suitable flop comes, you might be able to scoop the pot. However, you are not only playing a trashy ace, but you have a deuce which significantly worsens your hand. You need to fold the flop. Sure, you know the tag isn't limping with 92 like some other "fools", but does this really help you? You are playing the role of the "fool" now bu playing this bad hand. Your position can't help you now. Plus you played it so meekly you couldn't possibly take this pot. If you are going to steal, you better be willing to throw in some extra bets on the turn which you didnt.
Isolation helps you take advantage of early limpers playing BAD hands. It does not help you take advantage of good players playing good hands. The good player will release a hand if they don't connect. If they do connect, you will pay them off. You do see the difference Right? The tag didn't donk bet, they outplayed you. They bet the turn to see if you had the goods, you did not raise, so they value bet the river figuring you would call with a range of worse hands. You did.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
UTG+1's stats?

[/ QUOTE ]
Great question - and something I was just about to comment on...

I'm going to throw out a few nuggets of information that I've been pondering...

#1 - Thanks for all the comments, advice and discussion!! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

#2 - UTG's stats are 15/7/4 - not exactly normal TAG stats but, he was overly agressive post-flop. I don't recall his agression being that high when I was in this hand with him. This is over around 100 hands now - I believe that 15/7 would've been accurate while I was in the hand. However, I suspect his agression was closer to somewhere between 2 or 3 and the # of hands I had on him at this point was probably around 60-70.

#3 - The one point I'm a little disapointed on has been the PF discussion and I blame myself for not giving enough information in the OP on the texture of the game. This was an average-to-betterThanAverage loose/passive Party 2/4 game. I had plenty of confidence in limping good multiway hands like suited Aces, connectors and small PP's in EP with good confidence that there would be several callers and a high chance that PF would not be raised. This specific hand was an anomoly in the game with everyone folding around. The blinds were reasonable and if I had to put a number on it I would say that there was an 85% chance of folding them both out PF and if I got a caller there was another 85-90% chance that a flop bet would fold him out if he missed.

I figured that there would be plenty of commentary on PF play being either fine or horrible but - I've thrown out some hand ranges for a TAG player who limps UTG PF and there hasn't been much commentary on them. My point here is for someone to do a reasonable combination analysis on his hand range - I think it might be closer than we're thinking.

I'm also not convinced that the turn stop'n'go is as strong of a move as everyone is suggesting. It certainly has less validity now that I've revealed this Villian as a very aggressive post-flop player. However, even for a TAG, if he'd flopped a monster wouldn't we be expecting a checkraise on the turn. I know that, personally, I usually slow down to a turn stop'n'go where I would've bet and called a check-raise. I wouldn't expect a strong hand to be betting the turn in hopes of a 3-bet.

Thoughts...

[thejameser]

just b/c villain's hand hit the flop doesn't mean he is "good". where is the turn checkraise if he is so good? why did he miss that bet? why didn't he make OP pay for it where it counts: the big streets. OP's problem was he actually got a piece of the flop and had reason to think he had enough equity to call down.

[ElSapo]

[ QUOTE ]
he was overly agressive post-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You want tight-passive if you're really gonna try and isolate him. Also, if he's aggro, don't raise the flop, just call it down. You don't need any more tough decisions.

[ QUOTE ]
This was an average-to-betterThanAverage loose/passive Party 2/4 game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not a isolating environment.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
...if a suitable flop comes, you might be able to scoop the pot... you are not only playing a trashy ace, but you have a deuce which significantly worsens your hand...

[/ QUOTE ]
In making this play - my cards really don't matter as much as you're trying to give them credit for. Who cares what my kicker is. Who cares if I have an Ace - I would've made this raise with JT. Maybe that's wrong. My opinion is that all I need to know is that this tight/aggressive player is limping a certain range of hands in EP which will fold to a flop bet when he doesn't hit. I'm of the opinion that the board will flop enough misses for him to make this a profitable play for me.

[ QUOTE ]
Isolation helps you take advantage of early limpers playing BAD hands. It does not help you take advantage of good players playing good hands. The good player will release a hand if they don't connect. If they do connect, you will pay them off.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think that there are many times where they fold a hand significantly ahead of my holding that didn't appear to hit them.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This was an average-to-betterThanAverage loose/passive Party 2/4 game.

[/ QUOTE ]Not a isolating environment.

[/ QUOTE ]
In general - I agree. My view changed when 60% of the loose players folded and I was left to act against a tight player and 2 reasonable blinds.

[sfer]

Well, I've done that. I can't comment on whether it was good in that particular instance but a 15/7 who limps UTG+1 I would usually give credit for suited b'ways, a small/medium pair or a suited Ace if the game was good. I think they're going to be pretty willing to give up on the flop most of the time and, IMO, reading their hand when they don't becomes somewhat straightforward.

I think there are merits to raising/calling/folding depending on the blinds and my image.

Anyway, once you're on the flop I'd call there and raise the turn.

[sfer]

Hey lil', good post and I agree.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
why would you do this with a hand that is either behind or way behind the TAG's?

[/ QUOTE ]

If the table is good I expect KJs/KTs/QJs/QTs/JTs as well as any suited Ace to be in his range. All of these hands will check/fold the flop most times they don't flop a pair/draw.

[hellite]

If you want to have a discussion of preflop play try some reading. A2 off is a terrible hand, so that makes the fold button very easy to push. And it is not close. The range of hands that I would limp under the gun (some of these I raise also) are AJo,A10 suited, KQo, 88, 99, 77, KT suited, Qj suited, J10 suited. So as you can see, you are well behind 5 hands and ahead of 4. Maybe this particular player has a wider range of hands they play utg, but this does not look like an advantageous preflop play. The deuce just gives you little chance of improvement. I would hope it is common knowledge around here that playing hands with a deuce or three greatly devalues your hand. The wheel potential does not make up for this deficit. You gain a psychological edge in the hand by raising preflop, but you still need to TAKE the pot and given the range of hands I listed, your preflop raise is either allowing your opponent odds to call on his better draws, or gain more of your chips.

As you see the the flop betting and the turn betting, you must now wipe away the non-Ace hands unless you think this player is capable of putting a play on you. The tags turn bet represents the ace, and you can be 100% sure that if he does have the Ace you are outkicked. Easy fold.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
a 15/7 who limps UTG+1 I would usually give credit for suited b'ways, a small/medium pair or a suited Ace if the game was good. I think they're going to be pretty willing to give up on the flop most of the time and, IMO, reading their hand when they don't becomes somewhat straightforward.

[/ QUOTE ]
These were my thoughts immediately before I raised.

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, once you're on the flop I'd call there and raise the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
Can you give me a reasoning behind calling the flop and raising the turn versus my line of raising the flop?

[SeaEagle]

[ QUOTE ]
That's why it's stealing and not raising with the best hand.


[/ QUOTE ]
This iso play is also a steal (as is a weak UTG raise). That's the point. My only problem with this hand it that it wasn't played postflop like a steal.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure why people seem to get defensive sometimes

[/ QUOTE ]
If I came accross as defensive, I apologize. I just think people are too worried about the preflop play here when it looks to me like Crunchy made a pretty good read of the table.

Maybe a better approach would be to ask you about the situation just before the flop. Do you think it's profitable to be in position against the BB and a guy who doesn't really like his cards and is probably looking for a reason to fold, regardless of your cards?

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, once you're on the flop I'd call there and raise the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
Can you give me a reasoning behind calling the flop and raising the turn versus my line of raising the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

If he wants multiple bets going in on a big street on an AK board you are absolute toast. If he's calling single bets to showdown the same is likely true. If he's betting when it's HU, he's betting your hand for you, which is fine if he has a flush draw. If you raise the turn you'll get the max out of a draw, have like a nearly zero chance of folding an Ace, and not have a decision where you ponder how straightforward he is when he bets the river, because he'll check most times.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
If he wants multiple bets going in on a big street on an AK board you are absolute toast. If he's calling single bets to showdown the same is likely true. If he's betting when it's HU, he's betting your hand for you, which is fine if he has a flush draw. If you raise the turn you'll get the max out of a draw, have like a nearly zero chance of folding an Ace, and not have a decision where you ponder how straightforward he is when he bets the river, because he'll check most times.

[/ QUOTE ]
Cool - so then the river plan is to check behind or fold to a bet?

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If he wants multiple bets going in on a big street on an AK board you are absolute toast. If he's calling single bets to showdown the same is likely true. If he's betting when it's HU, he's betting your hand for you, which is fine if he has a flush draw. If you raise the turn you'll get the max out of a draw, have like a nearly zero chance of folding an Ace, and not have a decision where you ponder how straightforward he is when he bets the river, because he'll check most times.

[/ QUOTE ]
Cool - so then the river plan is to check behind or fold to a bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

That would be my plan.

EDIT: This brings up another point that I forgot to post first which is part of the reason I think preflop is not necessarily bad is because the button gives you so much leverage in controlling the big street betting, as is true with this line.

[hellite]

Suppose we limit the tag to the hands I listed as well as the ones listed by sfer. Ok. Given this range of hands, most flops either hit the hand or provide a strong draw for these holdings (Taking them all together). Your problem is deciphering which particular holding the tag has. You need further information. I think the tags flop bet tells you exactly what you need to know, but for some reason you want to disregard it because you are deceiving yourself. You said yourself that the reason you isolate the tag is because they are predictable, and will release when they do not connect. This is the reason you believe your strategy of isolating the tag works. Fine. Now when the predictable tag bets the flop, calls your raise, and bets the turn I think you have all the information you need. Don't you? I mean how predictable does the tag need to be to get you to release your hand?

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Cool - so then the river plan is to check behind or fold to a bet?

[/ QUOTE ]That would be my plan.

EDIT: This brings up another point that I forgot to post first which is part of the reason I think preflop is not necessarily bad is because the button gives you so much leverage in controlling the big street betting, as is true with this line.

[/ QUOTE ]
So then how would you compare your line of raising the turn/checking the river to the line suggested (I believe) by ElSapo of just a straight call-down from the flop through river?

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Cool - so then the river plan is to check behind or fold to a bet?

[/ QUOTE ]That would be my plan.

EDIT: This brings up another point that I forgot to post first which is part of the reason I think preflop is not necessarily bad is because the button gives you so much leverage in controlling the big street betting, as is true with this line.

[/ QUOTE ]
So then how would you compare your line of raising the turn/checking the river to the line suggested (I believe) by ElSapo of just a straight call-down from the flop through river?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think one can be marginally better but it depends on how straightforwardly he plays postflop. Generally, the trickier and laggier he can get the more I like ElSapo's line since you never get run off the best hand and you preserve your suckout equity. But at the same time, betting a draw on the flop is fairly tricky so I just confused myself.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why would you do this with a hand that is either behind or way behind the TAG's?

[/ QUOTE ]

If the table is good I expect KJs/KTs/QJs/QTs/JTs as well as any suited Ace to be in his range. All of these hands will check/fold the flop most times they don't flop a pair/draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, any 2 cards will do here, eh? Interesting.......

[hobbsmann]

[ QUOTE ]

#2 - UTG's stats are 15/7/4

I figured that there would be plenty of commentary on PF play being either fine or horrible but - I've thrown out some hand ranges for a TAG player who limps UTG PF and there hasn't been much commentary on them. My point here is for someone to do a reasonable combination analysis on his hand range - I think it might be closer than we're thinking.


[/ QUOTE ]

The hand range you gave earlier is way too wide IMO for a 15/7 player who just limped UTG. I play a 22/11 at 2/4 and don't limp half of the stuff you listed earlier in the post. I'm personally not against your attempt to steal with A2o, but I do think you need to find a place to let this hand go postflop after you are clearly behind.

[ElSapo]

[ QUOTE ]
If you want to have a discussion of preflop play try some reading. A2 off is a terrible hand, so that makes the fold button very easy to push.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you really talking to me? Because it was my post you replied to, but it doesn't seem like you're talking to me.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why would you do this with a hand that is either behind or way behind the TAG's?

[/ QUOTE ]

If the table is good I expect KJs/KTs/QJs/QTs/JTs as well as any suited Ace to be in his range. All of these hands will check/fold the flop most times they don't flop a pair/draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, any 2 cards will do here, eh? Interesting.......

[/ QUOTE ]

About a year ago I was clearing a bonus at Absolute. A couple of tables were very weak-tight and I would guess less than 1/5 of the hands made it to showdown, less than 1/3 to the turn. JDErickson was at the table although I didn't know it was him and vice versa. I posted a hand the next day and he PM'd me, telling me that my VPIP/PFR were like 35/25 over that session. I started noticing who gave up quickly and then I let them give up. It was fun until they started to catch on, then I left.

EDIT: Oh yeah, like every hand was also HU when there was a flop.

EDIT EDIT: Where is JDErickson?

[lil']

[ QUOTE ]
So, any 2 cards will do here, eh? Interesting.......

[/ QUOTE ]

Nooooo, if the blinds call (and at 2-4 they will call a lot) you want to have something to play with.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So, any 2 cards will do here, eh? Interesting.......

[/ QUOTE ]

Nooooo, if the blinds call (and at 2-4 they will call a lot) you want to have something to play with.

[/ QUOTE ]

clearly, but that is not the argument that sfer is making here.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So, any 2 cards will do here, eh? Interesting.......

[/ QUOTE ]

Nooooo, if the blinds call (and at 2-4 they will call a lot) you want to have something to play with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, having a 3rd player basically turns this hand into a disaster, which is why generally I would prefer to have more of a hand.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
I started noticing who gave up quickly and then I let them give up. It was fun until they started to catch on, then I left.

[/ QUOTE ]

In your experience, how long can you get away with this before the dumdums get wise and call you down with reasonable holdings?

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I started noticing who gave up quickly and then I let them give up. It was fun until they started to catch on, then I left.

[/ QUOTE ]

In your experience, how long can you get away with this before the dumdums get wise and call you down with reasonable holdings?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've seen Josh do it at a SH table for an hour or so live. I don't play in tables that juicy very often so I'm not quite sure.

[hellite]

[ QUOTE ]
Suppose we limit the tag to the hands I listed as well as the ones listed by sfer. Ok. Given this range of hands, most flops either hit the hand or provide a strong draw for these holdings (Taking them all together). Your problem is deciphering which particular holding the tag has. You need further information. I think the tags flop bet tells you exactly what you need to know, but for some reason you want to disregard it because you are deceiving yourself. You said yourself that the reason you isolate the tag is because they are predictable, and will release when they do not connect. This is the reason you believe your strategy of isolating the tag works. Fine. Now when the predictable tag bets the flop, calls your raise, and bets the turn I think you have all the information you need. Don't you? I mean how predictable does the tag need to be to get you to release your hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are still rambling. If you want to make these types of plays you need an escape hatch. You apparently do not have one. You are still attempting to find a raise in here somewhere. You attempted to swing the pendulum in your favor preflop. Unfortunately, you were foiled and you making a crying call in a hopeless situation.
I'm interested in how you escape trouble spots like this when you are behind. I think this post to some degree goes hand in hand with the "3-betting 44" post going on right now. These plays will work against bad players, but very good players will exploit these tendencies. This does not make the play wrong, but you need to be able to escape when you there is no hope. Unfortunately, I have yet to hear any particular reasoning about why exactly you are raising or calling down. Do you think that you are being bluffed?

[avisco01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My turn range for him (in order of likeliehood, IMO): A9s-A2s, K9, K8, 98, 88, 99, JTs, 67s, Kxs. I probably missed a couple but that's close.

[/ QUOTE ]


Do TAG's usually play K9, K8 type junk in EP?

[hellite]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My turn range for him (in order of likeliehood, IMO): A9s-A2s, K9, K8, 98, 88, 99, JTs, 67s, Kxs. I probably missed a couple but that's close.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um. No!


Do TAG's usually play K9, K8 type junk in EP?

[/ QUOTE ]

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My turn range for him (in order of likeliehood, IMO): A9s-A2s, K9, K8, 98, 88, 99, JTs, 67s, Kxs. I probably missed a couple but that's close.

[/ QUOTE ]
Do TAG's usually play K9, K8 type junk in EP?

[/ QUOTE ]
"Usually" - No. In the right game - maybe. I listed those as possibilities in the range because I could see him possibly donking the turn with 2-pair. I listed them in that order because I really would've expected a TAG to check-raise a powerhouse hand like 2-pair or better on the turn after I'd shown previous aggression PF and on the flop.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
I honestly don't care what his stats are, and I think the recent stat-obsession is silly (though maybe necessary when you 56-table).

[/ QUOTE ]

Sapo, back in March I had a very good conversation with sthief09 and The Dude about stats and how, VPIP and PFR in particular let you narrow down an opponent's hand quite precisely. I think ignoring that is giving up a lot.

[thejameser]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My turn range for him (in order of likeliehood, IMO): A9s-A2s, K9, K8, 98, 88, 99, JTs, 67s, Kxs. I probably missed a couple but that's close.

[/ QUOTE ]
Do TAG's usually play K9, K8 type junk in EP?

[/ QUOTE ]
"Usually" - No. In the right game - maybe. I listed those as possibilities in the range because I could see him possibly donking the turn with 2-pair. I listed them in that order because I really would've expected a TAG to check-raise a powerhouse hand like 2-pair or better on the turn after I'd shown previous aggression PF and on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

my thoughts as well. i think the name of this post is part of what is causing an uproar. i mean, everyone here thinks they are "TAG" types to varying degrees. it is the "style" that is preached to us as being the most profitable long-term. i was going to recommend re-entitling the post "Isolating the Weak/Tight" because this seems to be more the type of the opponent that this would succeed against(then i saw his AF factor, but he is just one example). it seems to me the guy(the limper) you want for this situation would have some idea about what to do preflop(hand selection, some raising, etc.). maybe he has read a book or two and has a tentative idea for strategy in general situations, but is not so good at the marginal ones. most importantly though, if the flop doesn't hit them(which is most of the time) they are out(low wtsd ratio, etc.) these are the guys you can typically easily read when they have the goods as they are usually straight forward about how they play it. anyway, i'm going home now.
and FWIW, any online player not tracking opponents and their stats(unless you are the rainman-type) is at a tremendous disadvantage to those that do. information, baby, it makes the world go 'round.

[hellite]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I honestly don't care what his stats are, and I think the recent stat-obsession is silly (though maybe necessary when you 56-table).

[/ QUOTE ]

Sapo, back in March I had a very good conversation with sthief09 and The Dude about stats and how, VPIP and PFR in particular let you narrow down an opponent's hand quite precisely. I think ignoring that is giving up a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you completely. However, it is crunchy1 who is not paying attention to stats here. Imagine crunchy had posted something like this:

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with A, 2.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 4 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) A, K, 9 (3 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 8 (2 players)
UTG+1 bets...
Should I fold? Bettor is a TAG and has just pulled a stop n go on me. Gosh, I must be beat. Should I call 2 more BB and pray for a deuce on the river? He might already have two pair? Can anybody find a fold here?

I think most would respond accordingly.
I think most reasonable 2+2ers would agree this is an easy fold.

[avisco01]

[ QUOTE ]
I think most reasonable 2+2ers would agree this is an easy fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, an easy fold PREFLOP. I'd try this with A9 or higher maybe, mostly for deception purposes, but not A2o. Some players choose to limp with AJo or ATs so I don't see how playing A2o this way is beneficial really. I think this is most likely in the "spewing" category IMHO.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, an easy fold PREFLOP.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's fine if you don't feel comfortable playing hands like this. However, what you feel is correct play for you does not neccessarily mean that it cannot be +EV for another player.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, an easy fold PREFLOP.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's fine if you don't feel comfortable playing hands like this. However, what you feel is correct play for you does not neccessarily mean that it cannot be +EV for another player.

[/ QUOTE ]

If by "another player," you mean UTG+1, then I agree.

If you can't fold the turn against the sort of player you think you're isolating then you should be folding preflop, though. I can dig preflop if you can dig finding a fold postflop.

Rob

[hellite]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, an easy fold PREFLOP.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's fine if you don't feel comfortable playing hands like this. However, what you feel is correct play for you does not neccessarily mean that it cannot be +EV for another player.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is not a matter of comfortability. Once it appears that you are clearly behind, you contine to call down. That is the problem. I would be comfortable playing this hand, however, I would release my hand when the predictable player communicated to me that they have me beaten.
I believe the preflop play is a mistake. However, you might have had a chance to steal from the tag, but the tag keeps telling you hes gotcha and you do not listen. This is the danger of this hand. You are unable to release you top pair hand. You have no kicker.

The value of this hand - as you have already stated - is the ability to get the tag to fold. The tag will not fold, hence, your hand has lost the value it had preflop. So according to your own ideal of expected value, your hand has been downgraded to junk bonds and you are still buying. A mistake.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
If you can't fold the turn against the sort of player you think you're isolating then you should be folding preflop, though. I can dig preflop if you can dig finding a fold postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
I can! ...however,

I still don't understand why most of you seem to think that his stop'n'go is such a powerful move. I think the default play of a TAG after I've raised preflop and the flop would be to checkraise the turn.

I'm starting to agree that my flop raise was not the best move. I like ElSapo's call down line and I think the line proposed by yourself and sfer on raising the turn has validity as well. I don't think that after I isolate and then hit my hand it's an easy fold just because a TAG stop'n'goes the turn. It seems to me that this is just as often as bluff/semi-bluff as it would be a legit hand trying to 3-bet.

Furthermore, keep in mind that while this guy is statistically a tight aggressive player - most 2/4 TAGs are not using the lead-in-order-to-3-bet line very often. I also think that you'll see this line even less HU because you're going to get an extra bet from check-raising more often than you'll gain 2 extra BBs from a SnG. The SnG will tend to shutdown your opponent - like it did here, if in fact Villian was intending to 3-bet the turn if I raised again.

I could find a fold on a player that I had a good note on. On a player that I'm isolating based on statistical eveidence I don't think I should feel bad about getting to showdown when I flop top-pair on an iso attempt.

[crunchy1]

If you want to increase your post count you could do so by posting something different once in awhile as opposed to posting the same thing over and over.

[ QUOTE ]
Once it appears that you are clearly behind, you contine to call down. That is the problem. I would be comfortable playing this hand, however, I would release my hand when the predictable player communicated to me that they have me beaten.

[/ QUOTE ]
Predictable, IMO, would've been getting check-raised on the turn - to which I would've folded. A 2/4 TAG stop'n'going the turn HU is not, IMO, predictable.

[ QUOTE ]
The value of this hand - as you have already stated - is the ability to get the tag to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
Correct - but that doesn't mean that I completely disregard any value that I gain from hitting my hand.

[hellite]

Did you see those two clubs on the flop? You raised the flop indicating one of two things. (1) You have a strong hand. (2)You want a free card because you picked up a flush draw. Therefore, the tagbets into you on the turn because they can't risk giving you a free card. This is the first reason that you don't see a check raise here. The second reason, is that the tag has a good hand, but given the preflop action, you might have a better hand.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you can't fold the turn against the sort of player you think you're isolating then you should be folding preflop, though. I can dig preflop if you can dig finding a fold postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
I can! ...however,

I still don't understand why most of you seem to think that his stop'n'go is such a powerful move. I think the default play of a TAG after I've raised preflop and the flop would be to checkraise the turn.

I'm starting to agree that my flop raise was not the best move. I like ElSapo's call down line and I think the line proposed by yourself and sfer on raising the turn has validity as well. I don't think that after I isolate and then hit my hand it's an easy fold just because a TAG stop'n'goes the turn. It seems to me that this is just as often as bluff/semi-bluff as it would be a legit hand trying to 3-bet.

Furthermore, keep in mind that while this guy is statistically a tight aggressive player - most 2/4 TAGs are not using the lead-in-order-to-3-bet line very often. I also think that you'll see this line even less HU because you're going to get an extra bet from check-raising more often than you'll gain 2 extra BBs from a SnG. The SnG will tend to shutdown your opponent - like it did here, if in fact Villian was intending to 3-bet the turn if I raised again.

I could find a fold on a player that I had a good note on. On a player that I'm isolating based on statistical eveidence I don't think I should feel bad about getting to showdown when I flop top-pair on an iso attempt.

[/ QUOTE ]

The stop and go move also keeps players like yourself from folding, where even a person with limited handreading skills can think oh, [censored], when he gets checkraised on the turn and find a fold.

Rob

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
You want a free card because you picked up a flush draw. Therefore, the tagbets into you on the turn because they can't risk giving you a free card.

[/ QUOTE ]
If this is the case then why wouldn't the TAG 3-bet the flop?

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
The stop and go move also keeps players like yourself from folding, where even a person with limited handreading skills can think oh, [censored], when he gets checkraised on the turn and find a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
I've never seen or used (that I can recall) that application of the move. Nice post! Thanks for the tip! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Entity]

Hey Crunchy,

Do me a favor.

Look at the pot size. Now look at the fact that you're usually calling 2BB here, once he bets the turn. Now give me a hand range. And tell me whether or not you're ahead often enough to call down.

I'm being serious here. I'd like you to do the math rather than just posting thinking that calling down is super profitable.

Rob

[hellite]

A10 is a good hand. However, the hand is greatly devalued when the flop has been raised. This is why it is usually incorrect to cold call preflop with A10. I'm not sure this is a good position to 3-bet. I do not usually like reraising what appears to be a four flush on the flop. I would prefer to do it on the turn. The turn however does not offer the option of the check raise, because of the possibility you take a free card.

[Justin A]

A2o sucks. Do this with hands like QTo or T8s instead.

[crunchy1]

Sorry it took awhile - it was taco night at home and I'm the cook! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I consider myself far from the math "geeks" of the forum - but, I'll give it a shot. Please correct me where I go wrong.

Here's a few pokerstoves of some hand ranges - which is where I think the biggest obstacle of this analysis lies. The difference between one and the other is the inclusion/exclusion of the 99/88 pairs. Personally, I favor the second analysis because I think those hands check-raise the turn (I also think that two pair checkraises the turn) - this is oviously up for debate.

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>Board: Ac Kd 9c 8h

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 46.6162 % 34.34% 12.27% { Ah2c }
Hand 2: 53.3838 % 41.11% 12.27% { 99-88, A9s-A2s, K8s+, Kc7c, Kc6c, QcJc, QcTc, Q9s, JcTc, 98s }</pre><hr />

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>Board: Ac Kd 9c 8h

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 53.7879 % 39.63% 14.16% { Ah2c }
Hand 2: 46.2121 % 32.05% 14.16% { A9s-A2s, K8s+, Kc7c, Kc6c, QcJc, QcTc, Q9s, JcTc, 98s }</pre><hr />

Since we're either winning or losing 2BBs I think that this would calculate out this way:

Case #1: (.3434 * 2) - (.4111 * 2) = -.13 BB/Hand
Case #2: (39.63 * 2) - (.3205 * 2) = +.15 BB/Hand

I think the big difference here depends on what Villian's stop'n'go dictates his hand range to be. In either instance - I think it's close (assuming my claculations are correct - in which I place absolutely no stock).

I never, for the record, said that calling down from the turn is "super profitable". I do, however, think that the isolation attempt, in general, can be, and is for me, a profitable play.

[27offsooot]

[ QUOTE ]
A2o sucks. Do this with hands like QTo or T8s instead.

[/ QUOTE ]

I read through some of the posts in this thread, but not all of them, so I don't know if this was mentioned before as well. You're very likely to only get action by hands that beat u when u raise with crap aces. I know, I know, u don't want action, but u can have any two cards and have the same fold equity. Pick some cards that have better post-flop expectation when u can't fold him out. I would much rather raise with non ace, decent hands such as the ones Justin mentioned. Post-flop has been beat to death, but i also think u need to fold the turn.

[SeaEagle]

[ QUOTE ]
I do not usually like reraising what appears to be a four flush on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
I've seen you make this reference to a flush draw several times now. Crunchy said this is the first time he's raised villian in this position, so villian doesn't know he's got a crappy hand. If you were villian, what suited hands would you put an EP raiser on that didn't include the A?

Because some people put their egos first and the right play comes in a distance second.