8 tabling woes - questions for those who have gone before me

[fnord_too]

So, I know I don't have a good sample size yet (~380 STTs) and I did not start 8 tabling until I had about 100 of them (4, then 6 tabled the first 100 or so) but...

I feel like my ROI is definitely hurting due to the 8 tables. I am not sure how much of this is variance, how much is bad play, if my hourly rate would go up if I dropped to 6 tables, or if I am just going through an acclamation period. So, questions for others who play too many tables:

How much do you think it affects your ROI? I am playing the 50's right now, and have an ROI of ~20% (I know the FAQ sais that is what one can reasonably expect at the 50+ level, but I am easily leaving 5-10% ROI (maybe more) on the table due to mistakes right now, most of which are due to missing situational information).

How long did it take (in number of STT's) before you plateaued? That is, how many STT's at the 8 table level did it take before your error rate due to multi-tasking leveled off? I am trying to figure out when I am about as good as I will get with 8 tabling so I can drop to 6 tables and maybe 4 tables and see the impact that has on my hourly rate.

To the truly insane who have tried 12 tables: Did the experience result in better play when (if) you dropped back to 8? Is it worth it, in your oppinions, to say 12 table 10's just to get better at 8 tabling in general, or is just plugging on with 8 tables better?

Any other advice/suggestions?

[durron597]

I haven't played that many tables, but I know that one concern that many others have had is quality of monitors. Do you have the full 2x 1600 by 1200 monitor? I know that I play 4 tables on 1 laptop monitor and even there I find the overlap annoying.

[fnord_too]

Yes, I have a dual 1600X1200 set up. I would not consider playing that many tables if I had to deal with overlap, though that new tool that brings the window to act on to a specific spot is interesting. Scanning back and forth between two monitors is harder than one might think, I probably should sit a little farther back from the screens.

[Moonsugar]

20% ROI @ 55 = 8 table woes?

For me 8 tables seems to help cause I can't surf the net on my 2nd monitor, I have to pay attention to the tables. Now if I had better self control and could avoid distraction I think I could probably make 5% or so more at 55 and 3 or 4 % more at 109. Still not enough to warrant 4 tables.

[Nicholasp27]

yeah, at 45 mins per sng and 25% rake back, you are looking at $124/hour if u 8-table 50s at 20%roi...from what i've read, 20% roi at 50s is pretty good, so if u are 8tabling and getting 20%, u prolly shouldn't be too worried...

if u know that u are making -ev mistakes and recognize them, then maybe focus on why u are doing that (distracted? too many tables open at once? moving back and forth between 2 monitors? on bubble on 8 tables at once?) and fix that...maybe stagger tournies so u are only on the bubble in a few at a time?

[tigerite]

I'm still getting used to 8-tabling, the most annoying thing is setting the damn tables up, I think it's time to write some kind of script to auto-open them for me. If it's possible.

[Sabrazack]

If you think and act fast enough it should only hurt your ROI very very little. My ROI as increased by 6% over 1000 tours since i started 8 tabling 300 tournaments ago. But thats 100% variance /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
maybe stagger tournies so u are only on the bubble in a few at a time?

[/ QUOTE ]

That is something I really need to do. I really get into trouble when I get deep into seveal STTs at once. A typical mistake may be:

I have 2k at the 50/100 level, 6 players left, and raise to 300 UTG+1 with 66. go focus on other tables, pop back over and see the call button up, and click it before I realize that someone who started with say 1400 pushed. Just stupid knee jerk things because my attention is so divided.

I am figuring closer to 8 STT's an hour, due to start up and ramp down time. Also, I don't always immediately fill blank spots due to being shorthanded at multiple STTs I am still in.

Oh, and I have 22.5% rake back at one site and 0% at the other because I suck. In a few weeks I will probably go to the classifieds and get something set up on another skin.

What kills me, makes me want to tear my hair out, is when I make a bubble blunder. Also, I tend to not be aggressive enough on the bubble I think when I have so many tables up, and this is a silent ROI killer.

Of course all this may just be part of the adjustment period. Right now, I think my hourly rate would be higher 6 tabling, but if I can elliminate a few mistakes, that will not be the case.

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm still getting used to 8-tabling, the most annoying thing is setting the damn tables up, I think it's time to write some kind of script to auto-open them for me. If it's possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

That would be awesome! It would even be great if the bloody things opened on the monitor the lobby was in. I friggin hate when my right monitor STTs always open up in the upper left corner of the left monitor.

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
If you think and act fast enough it should only hurt your ROI very very little. My ROI as increased by 6% over 1000 tours since i started 8 tabling 300 tournaments ago. But thats 100% variance /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Did it drop at all when you first started 8 tabling? If so, how long do you think it took to hit your stride with them?

[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm still getting used to 8-tabling, the most annoying thing is setting the damn tables up, I think it's time to write some kind of script to auto-open them for me. If it's possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

That would be awesome! It would even be great if the bloody things opened on the monitor the lobby was in. I friggin hate when my right monitor STTs always open up in the upper left corner of the left monitor.

[/ QUOTE ]

So do I. It's awful. I think I can at least stop it doing that, the finding free tables etc is much trickier.

[wildzer0]

Well, FWIW, I'm an idiot and I jumped straight from 4 to 8. I had about 2 break-even, slight loss days before I felt comfortable and started playing better. It definitely does hurt your ROI regardless though. I'm sometimes amazed at the weird hands I see or moved I made when I review that I didn't notice at the time because I was hurried.

[wildzer0]

[ QUOTE ]
I am playing the 50's right now, and have an ROI of ~20%

[/ QUOTE ]
Just saw that. I officially change my post to, "Quit yer whinin'!" Just kidding, but if you're 8-tabling the 55s with a 20% roi, I've got no sympathy, you're doing great and it's just going to get easier as you get used to things.

[durron597]

I've heard other people talking about either dropping 1 table for the lobby or getting a 3rd lobby monitor.

Also, I know that even 4 tabling I have a hard enough time playing shorthanded at more than 2 tables, I really think staggering is key.

[lacky]

well, I can play 8 effectively, but I play much better playing 6, so my answer was to move up one level and play 2 less tables. so far, so good, although I'm lost in limit land again now, so I may not be playing any for a while.

Steve

[kevstreet]

[ QUOTE ]
20% ROI @ 55 = 8 table woes?

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't close to woeful.

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
20% ROI @ 55 = 8 table woes?

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't close to woeful.

[/ QUOTE ]
Meh, the woeful part is I see myself making egregious mistakes due to sensory overload. I really want to know when I can expect the number of mistakes I make to be constant (no longer adjusting to the number of tables) so I can decide how to best maximize my time.

Also, my sample size is pretty damn small.

Also, I'd love to know any tricks of the trade I am missing. The staggering thing I need to work on, I just get compulsive about getting all the tables open and don't take enough time. I am considering 12 tabling lower limits as training, but I don't know if that will help or not.

[kevstreet]

[ QUOTE ]
I am considering 12 tabling lower limits as training, but I don't know if that will help or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I remember Curtains dropping levels when he started 8 tabling, perhaps this is a viable option until you get acclimated to 12 tables.

Adding Tables / Dropping Levels (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2730424&page=&view=&s b=5&o=)

[fnord_too]

Thanks for the link.

I am not planning on 12 tabling as my regular thing, I was thinking about 12 tabling lower buy in tournies as sort of shock training to make 8 tables seem like a breeze.

I ended up last night with fewer tables, but mixed in the 100's, actually I ended up with all 100's after the first couple. I definitely made fewer mistakes. I also noticed the beats a lot more, both the ones I took and gave. Oh, and I think in my last 5 I had two firsts a second and a third to go from pretty negative to a normal score in the last 20 minutes of play ala Degen. I know this happens because you are more likely to do better in your last ones due to survival bias (i.e. they are your last ones because you haven't busted out of them yet, so you are probably deeper in them), but it still feels, well, like something.

Also last night I staggered starts more than normal. That probably helped, too.

[Isura]

Why not just play 6 tables for a while, then gradually add the 7th and 8th. When I played limit, things went horribly wrong when I tried jumping straight from 4 to 8, and I still can't do more than 6 very well.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
Why not just play 6 tables for a while, then gradually add the 7th and 8th. When I played limit, things went horribly wrong when I tried jumping straight from 4 to 8, and I still can't do more than 6 very well.

[/ QUOTE ]

to everyone that says drop tables.. i actually recommend ADDING tables, but playing the 22s or something. get about 150-200 under yer belt (one or two days easy..) and then jump back up to 8 tabling the 55s. will make you feel MUCH more relaxed and in control. when i stopped 12 tabling, i felt like i had WAY too much time on my hands.

also, if yer worried about ONLY having 20% at the 55s, yer in for a gigantic surprise. 20% 8 tabling 55s is domination. period. be happy with it while it lasts, cuz it prolly wont.. holla

[benza13]

I'm happy to see this thread, as it is giving me some good advice for moving up to 8-tables, which I plan on doing as soon as I see a great deal on the 2001FP again. I know that at this point 4 seems like a breeze, so I am hoping that gradually adding one more at a time over the course of a few days/weeks should work well enough.

[Mr_J]

First of all it's possible you moved up to 8tables too quickly. Doing it in 100 sngs is quicker than what most could.

"How much do you think it affects your ROI? I am playing the 50's right now, and have an ROI of ~20%"

Do you mean that is what you think your EV is, or is that just how your've run so far??? Doesn't sound like you have much of a sample so I wouldn't really worry about your ROI right now.

Your've had 280 sngs to 8table, so I'd think if you were ok to 8table you would have been fine by now. If you still feel rushed I'd jump back down 6 and try 8 sometime in the future. I assume you were fine 6tabling when you jumped up to 8??? Adding tables quickly suggests that you should be able to cope, but 8tabling for 280 sngs and not used to it yet doesn't look too good.

[Mr_J]

"I am figuring closer to 8 STT's an hour, due to start up and ramp down time"

Then I suggest going back to 6tabling and playing them continuously. Having less sngs running makes starting a new one easier and you should be able to get at least 8, but probally around 9.

"n a few weeks I will probably go to the classifieds and get something set up on another skin."

Do it now. Any serious multitabler should have rakeback immediately. It is worth an extra 2% ROI.

"I have 2k at the 50/100 level, 6 players left, and raise to 300 UTG+1 with 66. go focus on other tables, pop back over and see the call button up, and click it before I realize that someone who started with say 1400 pushed. Just stupid knee jerk things because my attention is so divided."

Seriously drop down. Either that or you are just rushing your decisions. Most decisions should be automatic, but when they aren't don't force a decision. Take your time.

[Mr_J]

"to everyone that says drop tables.. i actually recommend ADDING tables"

This is a good idea actually. Getting at least partly used to 12 tabling will make 8tabling like watching the grass grow.

"when i stopped 12 tabling, i felt like i had WAY too much time on my hands."

This is why I need another dell. 8tabling with overlap gets in only the same amount as 6tabling for me, since the overlap makes it a total b!tch to start fresh games. 6tabling is just so damn SLOW. That and if I had another dell I could try 12 tabling with overlap /images/graemlins/smirk.gif